Tina Tinde has worked in international organisations since she was in her mid twenties. Throughout her career she has fought for gender equality, inclusion and safeguarding against sexual exploitation and abuse and Sexual Harassment her entire career. In this conversation with Lars Peter Nissen she provides her perspective on how we can address these issues and the progress we have made over the past decades.
Transcript
Welcome to Trumanitarian. I'm your host Lars Peter Nissen. This week's guest is Tina Tinde, who works as the head of delegation for the Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent societies in Niger. Tina has worked with international cooperation her entire career, and has, according to herself, grown up in the UN. The topic of our conversation is gender, inclusion, and protection against sexual exploitation and abuse. It's a depressing, frustrating and unacceptable aspect of our humanitarian sector to see scandal after scandal erupt around humanitarians, exploiting the very people we're supposed to assist and protect. And as you will hear Tina, in good Norwegian fashion, speaks her mind clearly and loudly. However, in spite of the seriousness of the topic, as you will hear, this is not a depressing or overtly angry conversation. Tina is a very positive and driven person, and she tackles these serious and very personal issues with humour and excessive energy and that is why her message is so impactful. She told me after we did the interview, that I was a good listener. And I'd like to repay her the compliment by saying that she's a very good talker. So please fasten your seat belts. Sit back, relax and enjoy. Here comes the inclusion rider.
Tina Tinde, welcome to Trumanitarian.
Tina Tinde:Thank you so much for having me.
Lars Peter Nissen:It's great that you had time... we arranged this very quickly. You're on your way back to Niger, where you're based, but but we managed to meet up on this Friday, sunny Friday, in Geneva. It's rather wonderful, actually. And I look forward to a great conversation around gender, inclusion and safeguarding with you. How are we dealing with these issues in the humanitarian sector. But maybe where we should begin is to figure out who's Tina. You... On Twitter, your handle is inclusion rider. So just tell us who is Tina and why is her handle inclusion rider?
Tina Tinde:You know the handle on Twitter comes from Hollywood, actually, where there were some actors, white actors, who said that they demanded the same pay to actors of colour as for actors who were Caucasian, white extraction. So that became a term inclusion rider. I saw it maybe four or five, six years ago and I immediately took it as my as my handle. Because I think it's... there's a responsibility by the privileged groups to step up for justice and equality. It will not come by itself.
Lars Peter Nissen:And so what's your story? Where do you come from professionally? And what have you been doing?
Tina Tinde:Yes. Well, I'm from Norway, and I studied social sciences, anthropology journalism, for several years, and I was recruited to the UN in New York in the Department of Public Information after a national competitive exam, when I was 25 years old. So I usually say that I grew up in the UN. And it's easy to take to heart, the mandate of the UN, the quest for peace and justice and equality. And I have seen that the UN mandate is extremely similar to all the other actors where I have worked, so that it doesn't feel so different. For me, even though I've worked in a number of different organisations, I find that the goal is usually the same. So I'm not very good at turf fighting. I can be quite flexible. Just like discrimination is flexible, I can be flexible and work in any organisation. I would usually use what I've learned from one and tried to apply it in another and just just work for, let's say, inclusion and advancement or people who are discriminated. That I would say is it's what drives me.
Lars Peter Nissen:And the job where you maybe had the biggest influence to do that, you were the advisor to Antonio Guterres when he was at UNHCR, where you were his advisor on gender and sexuality.
Tina Tinde:Advisor on gender issues. It was a job that was created after some intense negotiations, I think, from the Norwegian Foreign Ministry. Yes, so I came there. So I worked on prevention and response to sexual exploitation and abuse. I helped to draft the Secretary General's strategy on assistance to victims. And that's another key word for me, victims, or we can also say survivors, of gender based violence. So I was extremely happy to be working on that. It was not easy. This was back in 2OO4 to 2OO9. But this was a time just after the Mano River Scandal, as we call it, were three countries in West Africa... there were there was a report about I think was about 66 men who had been reported for gender based violence against children. So this was the, let's say, the old Oxfam scandal, even though Oxfam may or may not have been involved at that time, I don't remember, but there were many organisations represented. So my position then was created in response to these violations. And I already knew about these types of abuses from Cambodia, where I was in a peacekeeping operation in 92-93. And I was also present in a meeting with the head of the mission, who said that The boys will be boys. And this was reported in Time Magazine. And I was sitting there and I could not believe how an organisation with such noble goals could even approve publicly the kinds of exploitation of the local women and children that I also witnessed.
Lars Peter Nissen:And so you enter the UN at a fairly young age, and I'm sure that as a young woman in that system, you have your own set of stories around how gender plays into the workplace, you work at a very senior level advising the High Commissioner for Refugees, and today you are with the Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent societies, where you also have sort of a gender advisory role or...
Tina Tinde:No I've appointed myself as my own gender advisor.
Lars Peter Nissen:You appointed yourself as...
Tina Tinde:Yes, it was... it took about one second. And but I didn't get a raise. I mean, that's a bit... that's too bad. But it's not really about me. But I'm so happy that I have this chance to speak with you and hopefully there are lots of listeners out there. I do love to speak, especially to young people. So hello, everyone, if you're a student, and I don't mind hearing from you later, you can you can add me on Twitter and send me private messages, If you want to discuss further. So... Yeah, so in this this position, what I want to explain is that, I think all Heads of Office, which I am now, it's a temporary position with the Federation of the Red Cross Red Crescent. I'm very happy about it. I'm in Niger. It's one of the poorest countries in the world and it's also riddled with conflict and disasters and there's also much violence against women and children. And so there's... I feel that there's a there's really a need for good cooperation with the government and with the host national society, the Niger Red Cross. So I find that I'm in a good spot. And I will also want to say that for a Head of Office of humanitarian organisation, there's always not always time, and you don't always have access to the expertise on gender issues. If you look at our websites, there's there's no lack of principles. There's there's actually no lack of tools, either. There are trainings created by so many organisations and the content of the training and the content of the code of conduct etc. and the policies, they're really excellent. So it's up to us to see how we can implement it. And that's where you need the expertise. Because if you want to have a high level discussion with the government, a host government on finances and budget, you definitely speak to your finance boss before. And then if you want to have a high level discussion with the government about gender issues, what do you do, if you've never worked on gender issues, if the post was cancelled two years ago, you're new in the country, you have you have a million things to do, so this, I was facing this. So when I landed in Niger, in May this year, I had already sent some tweets to "Femmes, Acions et Development." I found them on Twitter, they replied. I had also contacted... I found deep on the on the web, I found the email address of the head of the Interagency Network of Protection from Sexual Exploitation and Abuse. I wrote to him, he answered, and these women also answered. So I thought that, This will keep me on the on the straight and narrow. So when I go to Niger, I will not be a head of office who will forget about all the principles and everything I've been talking about for 30 years. And not only me. So then I actually had to do it. So I was so happy that these women wanted to see me because I know that they know more about Niger than I will ever do. Their office was a little bit hard to find. My driver is... he is from Niamey, but we couldn't find it. We got lost. It... I was carsick by the time I got there and not in a very good mood. But of course, they cheered me up. And we've had several meetings after. They are helping us. And so this takes time. And the reason why I could do it, it's not only because I am extremely interested, it's also because the team is so good. So I want to say that I feel a little bit guilty that my team would have to work harder on all the, you know, operations and etc. because they were very happy that I could use my gender advisor self-appointment to be doing this. And I'm now working on a pilot. So what I'm trying to do now, with the local women's associations and with the host national society and several other Red Cross that are there, is to create some some good practices that can be shared with others in the sector and also in the Federation.
Lars Peter Nissen:I'd like to dig in a bit to the shift you have had between being, for many years, and advisor on these issues, in a sense, standing on the sidelines, saying all the right things, I'm sure being very frustrated of a lack of change. And then suddenly to become the head of delegation for the Federation in a country responsible for the overall management of the portfolio. And with all the constraints that that entails. When you reflect on that shift. Where's the bottleneck? Why do you think we see so little change? You said yourself, there are great tools out there. It's not knowledge, actually. And is that technically difficult to comprehend? Or... So why doesn't it happen, often?
Tina Tinde:Well, gender discrimination is ingrained. And it's not only happening in Niger, it's happening in all countries in the world. So working as a gender advisor, for me, it was always very interesting, I was very happy to do it. But as you said, very, very frustrating. I've heard sometimes when a gender advisor is appointed, some people are worried that they're going to have a bitter gender advisor. So I think that for me, I've leaned on some good mood and good friends and family who haven't gotten me through all of this. But so the ingrained gender discrimination is extremely... you can always understand that. And then also... and that has led to the fact that these operations... I would say gender based violence is a pandemic as bad as any other pandemic. And the efforts to finance the response and the assistance to survivors, that system is not integrated into governments. It's not a major part of development organisations or of humanitarian organisations. All the statistics show that. I think 2 or 3% of humanitarian assistance is devoted to gender. How on earth is that possible in 2O21.
Lars Peter Nissen:So what we're saying is, on one side, there is a culture which is really heavy in terms of gender roles, often, and discrimination against the...
Tina Tinde:Prevalence of male managers in governments in parliaments. And I have noticed, if we also have to think about positive matters, it is that there are now gradually more women in senior positions. Several of the heads of agencies, such as the World Bank, and I think it also WHO and others and embassies, in Niger are headed by women. And it's not automatic. Women are not born to be gender equality experts, and many women actually support patriarchal structures. But I find that many of us also, we have grown up as as girls, as Ruth Bader Ginsburg said, she says it helps to have grown up a girl to understand gender discrimination. So we find... I find it's easier for me to find the tone, and to perhaps strategize, with women but there are so many men supporters, like yourself, and like the men in my office, they're big smiles about everything that I that I do on gender and gender based violence issues.
Lars Peter Nissen:But let me ask you, so you... we have a culture that makes it difficult to work with gender, we have a lack of a policy framework, creating a conducive environment, we have often a predominance of men in central roles... Now, I'm sure you knew this before you went to Niger, but being a manager yourself and having that responsibility, what surprised you? What surprised you of how difficult some things are? Or is it just easy when you come in with the motivation and the drive that you have? Is it then easy? Or where are those obstacles?
Tina Tinde:Yeah, it's a little bit about the timing also. Because we... there are actually new scandals regarding abuses of affected people that comes out every week. So this is not something that I have to speak about just by myself. There are many good journalists who are reporting on this. I find it a little bit embarrassing that it's mainly media who are reporting on violations. We... I think we should be much more open about these things in our own organisations, and including governments. But we really will need to work closer together. There's, there's a good quote by an expert on gender based violence. She says that cooperation on complaints mechanisms should be a requirement for funding. So that brings me to some of the strong governments who are funding humanitarian assistance and bilateral cooperation with governments, if they actually put it as a requirement. So I've found that, for me, it's easy, but I'm saying if I were a finance expert (I've never studied finance for a minute in my life)... So let's say I came in there with an MBA. I think that as a manager, I think I would have liked to use that expertise and so maybe the Niger cluster office would have become a superstar on just excellence in finance. And I think we all know that there's not enough hours in the day for a manager to know all aspects. And that's why I'm just using that as an illustration. That when you when you're not a gender advisor, when you haven't worked on it, you need one, and and then you need to put it into the budget, which I'm doing. So from the first day I was there, I have put gender issues and fighting sexual exploitation of affected people, I put it into every report, budget, job description, plan meeting that I can get my hands on, because I can.
Lars Peter Nissen:So what you're saying is, if you have the intent that you have to really drive this agenda forward, you actually recognise that you're too busy and triangulated left, right and centre by all the other agendas you have, so you need a specialised person who then has your attention and access to you, as a senior manager in the country, and then you need to mainstream it not just in language and words, but in money in across the different budgets.
Tina Tinde:And be measured on it. And so that I would say, I'm not going to ask for a meeting with the head of the World Bank, when I get back. I have already spoken to their advisor on sexual exploitation and abuse. And that's a woman who I said that... and she's in the first position of that kind that she has in DC, but she covers Niger remotely. So she and I... it's even a plotting, I can tell this to the microphone, to the world, that it's not a secret that I, as a head of office, can ask other heads of offices for a meeting. And I don't want to blame all the others who do not do this because we all come with our own education, our own experience, and we come also with the pressure that is, let's say, from a regional office or from headquarters. It's... We're all just people. So what I'm doing is to now understanding... I also told you, it's time consuming, it's not just that we got lost on the road in the Niamey. I've also organised, together with colleagues, two workshops on sexual harassment in the workplace, because I could spend a little bit of money from the budget. So money is gold for gender advisors, we have so little of it. So I thought at least now I can... I prepared the terms of reference, we held two really good workshops on prevention and also got fabulous recommendations, both from men and women, on what to do. One of the men, he even put in the recommendations that you should not send dick pics to people, it may seem like a nice gesture from you but please make sure that you ask women before you send them. And so these are things that are actually happening internally in organisations that some of our colleagues... And even though I'm now 57, so I thought maybe I would be protected due to my age because I know that young people are targeted very much... But still, this thing can happen at any time. So the recommendations are fabulous. So I would like to say, if you... if we want to start doing well on gender equality and advancement of women, we have to... everybody, we have to work on it internally. It has to be on the agenda. There has to be onboarding about national legislation. Sexual harassment is prohibited in over 150 countries, according to our World Bank statistics. So it is prohibited in Niger, it could be punishable by fines and prison. Why does not everybody who starts to work in that country, or in Switzerland, why isn't the information about the national legislation the first thing? Because we cannot hide behind any kind of diplomatic immunity. That only covers behaviours of the top executives of international organisations. And even then there should be... there will be no impunity for sexual abuse and harassment, according to the Secretary General of the UN. But in practice, it's a bit difficult.
Lars Peter Nissen:It's really sound advice on the dick pics, by the way. And I'd like to echo that please don't send those to people. That's basically not good practice. But I think the question is, when you leave in a couple of years, do you think the number of dick pics circulating in the office will have gone down?
Tina Tinde:Well, we also have to make sure that those who might receive obscene and unwanted messages whether it's by a photo, by a telephone... there's so much sexual harassment that is happening even in the four months since I arrived there. So that it's happening left, right and centre. And it's not only... I'm not saying that it's only from people from Niger. There are other nationalities who are there. There's a male entitlement that a lot of men think that they should have access to women's' and girls' bodies. And that seems to be... we have not been able to get rid of it in the humanitarian sector. And I don't want to only bash the humanitarian sector because we are... I don't think we are worse than any other sector. This is happening in church, in sports, in media... In Hollywood you have Harvey Weinstein, you have... There's... it seems to be happening in every sector.
Lars Peter Nissen:Yeah, I also don't think we're worse, but I don't think we're better.
Tina Tinde:No, and you... and people are more shocked. Because I, you know, I speak with friends and they say, How on earth can that can there be wrongdoing going on in a humanitarian or in a human rights office? And I spoke to... I just had an appointment with somebody working in the medical sector who said that, that it's really shocking that there would be any kind of this. And I said, Well, if you give me a few minutes with some of your nurses. And then he sort of said, Yes, he had heard that there were... particularly one group of doctors, he said, who had a reputation in that hospital to be pursuing young women. And so if the culture is that they should get away with it, what do... those young women (that's why it's so bad in the workplace) because they will, we all need to, make a living. So it's doubly bad when it happens in the workplace. I don't approve of sexual harassment in a nightclub at all, but if, at the same, time affects not only your health and your well being, but it also affects your paycheck, that's where employers have to be extremely vigilant and share a lot of information to new staff and regular updates about legislation.
Lars Peter Nissen:If you take a scan since you were 25 till today, where has the progress been? What is it that has changed?
Tina Tinde:It's the tools. So I was missing those when I was young, working at the at the UN. I was sexually harassed pretty badly, myself. And there was no... there was absolutely zero support. So I spoke to a few colleagues about what something that had happened, it was actually a director who undressed in front of me, and he pointed to me, and he wanted me to do the same. I mean, come on. So I was basically hired as a sex toy in the UN. And of course, I spent the next two years trying to get away from that person. So women... very soon the signal was sent to me that I had no place there, according to the director, except to be undressed. And you know, I didn't study political science and anthropology to be looked at like that. And I realised there are men also who are looked in the same way, but it's a lot of women. So I I spoke to some colleagues about it, who I trusted, and they said, Oh, we are we've had a lot of sexual harassment cases. And the women are usually declared hysterical, and the men are usually promoted. So that's how I was received in the UN 30 years ago. And now at least there is a little bit more understanding. I think, the Me Too, Aid Too campaign, it has shed light on the issue of systems have not changed enough. I think the resistance against change in governments, parliaments, private sector and humanitarian sector... I think the resistance is massive. I think we've had actually a pushback where men have been used to having all the senior positions now they're supposed to share 50-50. "Get out of here". A lot of men are not ready to do that. So and I also want to mention that when we do work on gender issues, it's not only coming from the West. You have the Maputo protocol in Sub-Saharan Africa which has wonderful principles on gender equality that are prepared by Africans, adopted by Africans. It's not something that comes from, let's say, from the Netherlands, or the UK or Sweden. They may know each other. But this these principles... I've heard, actually Norwegian, a male diplomat, who told an African woman that we don't want to shove our gender equality down your throat. This was in a meeting in the foreign ministry in Oslo. And she sat up (she was a PhD from Egypt) and she sat up and she said, Sir, we are perfectly capable of promoting our own gender equality on our own. So here you had one... a guy who had been an ambassador in a senior position... I could hardly believe my ears. It was embarrassing that he... He actually, in his mind, he thought that gender equality came from... So that's why I speak a lot with women from Niger, because they know the challenges much better than me. So I always make sure to put them, you know, at the podium, also men, and so that we can learn from them. Because even though I'm very driven, and I've worked on this a long time, there's a lot of things I don't know.
Lars Peter Nissen:So I what I hear you saying, Tina, is that the big progress you've seen over the past 20-some years is, on one side, that we speak about it much more, that it's part of the discourse, that it has come into the light in a way. And then I hear you saying two other things. One, that we internally must carry out investigations when when we see a case come to light. But we also need independent watchdog such as journalists or local civil society, to ensure that we have... that we don't police ourselves, in a way.
Tina Tinde:All right. Yes, yes, yes. Very good point. That's that's the crux of the matter. It is very difficult and of course also humanitarian organisations, which I know quite well, they've also been punished by even being open about cases and that should not happen. This is this is a process where we need more openness about it and then in... so instead of punishing organisations for cases popping up and being reported, we actually need funding. And we are not a profit-making sector. So we cannot just suddenly find money or produce something and sell something. We need it mainly from governments and also private donors. And they can they can demand what the money should be spent on.
Lars Peter Nissen:Yeah, I'd like to pick up on on what you said. And for me, it is sort of the, what is the role of the institutions and the versus the personal aspects of this and and how do we actually build a system that both have hardcore accountabilities in terms of complaints mechanisms, investigations, independent watchdogs, as we talked about, but also a culture where we this becomes less and less visible. Because, I'll be honest with you, it can be very, very difficult, from a managerial position, to sometimes detect these things. I'm... I don't have the benefit of having grown up as a woman so I am blind to many of these things. I found and learned quite late in life, actually, how blind we can be to these things, and I have to be honest, it it can be actually even, with the best of intentions, to see this. Because it's it's very discreet often.
Tina Tinde:Yeah, it's a good point, because the intentions can be very good, but they could still be harmful to a survivor. So that's why we need the expertise. Because what I do, if I'm contacted every week, by women, mainly, but also some men who have been sexually harassed or (And that includes rape. It's part of sexual harassment)... And at this point, I don't think that most organisations are not mature enough to be conducting a trauma-informed interview where because very often, the survivors are extremely distraught. So they can break down and they may... or they're not coherent, they've probably gone through the worst experience of their life and then they might be losing the job, also, because of it. It is so unfair. So what I speak with survivors about is what would you like to do? When do you feel safe? What can we do? How is it how does your career look? And what can I do to assist you? But not taking over the matter. Because a lot of us, when we meet somebody who's been experiencing injustice and pain, we want to do things on their behalf because we find them so weak. But there's a lot of strength in survivors. And I... they have to be even stronger than those who have not experienced this, because they still have to get up in the morning, they still have to make a salary. And they still have to deal with their friends and family and everything and many of them do not tell friends and family what has happened like I, for instance, I would keep things very quiet back then. So then I try to build... at least to establish this trust and to tell them that I'm not doing anything that you would not like me to do. So there is a lot of well meaning family and friends and managers who take things into their own hands and start to send maybe emails and say, Oh, you should speak to that one and that one. Maybe there's an ombuds person, they're usually very good at keeping things confidential and quiet. So they can be very helpful. Usually they have too much to do. But that's one function. You usually have an ethics adviser. But also, I think all of this would be much easier if the funding that major organisations provide to, let's say, humanitarian crisis areas... if the funding also focus a lot on developing the local mechanisms. Because as humanitarian organisations we can do very little if there's not a justice system or service providers. So the lack of clinics for people who have experienced gender based violence, the lack of that, it's terrible. There's not enough at all in, I think, in most countries, and especially in the countries experiencing disaster and conflict.
Lars Peter Nissen:I'd like to take you back to the doctor you spoke about who was surprised that these things happen in our dear little industry. I'd like to ask to what extent is it an obstacle for us addressing this in a mature sensible manner, that we are somehow seen as the good guys and sometimes, God help us, even see ourselves as the good guys. And that... so this shouldn't happen, as your doctor friend said. Well, how can this happen? Right? So what do you do when it happens?
Tina Tinde:Yeah, well, we have to hold ourselves to account. So we have to walk the talk. And the tools that I mentioned... it's fabulous. I've seen a great improvement in access to information. And it's not very often being used. Not enough because people are so busy. And the humanitarian sector by itself is working in an emergency mode. And but what about the development organisations? I worked for the Inter American Development Bank on diversity and inclusion, and I brought up this sexual exploitation and abuse topic and there was no interest in working on that. This was 12 years ago. So I basically couldn't do it. So there has to be a leadership on it. There has to be not not looking at being a gender or diversity advisor as a as a private hobby. It's very often seen as something that would benefit me as a woman, or if it's a black woman, it would benefit her. So I would say that discrimination, and excluding people from from top levels and decisions, it is extremely flexible. So this would affect any sector. So like I said, it's... if you work in theatre, I'm sure... You know, you've seen a huge scandal in the cultural sector in Sweden, for instance. And Sweden is considered to be a gender equality paradise. But gender based violence and harassment of women it's run amok there in various sectors. So yeah, so I don't like to focus so much on the humanitarian, but I just wanted to tell that it's actually been quite a liberating, exhilarating experience for me to come as a head of office and to be prepared to do this and to have a little bit of money. And to get such good response from Finish Red Cross, Spanish Red Cross, French Red Cross, the back donors (it's usually the foreign ministry). So I find now that there is more... than more alliances being made and that's good. Because information, networking, that's what's been keeping women away from senior positions, and away from budgets on gender based violence, so if we as women, with the men who want to support it, and there are many very good men who support this from all over the world... so I remember when UN Women was created, I was furious about the name. So that was 10 years ago, 10-12 years ago, and we had meetings here in Geneva, it was at UNHCR, and I thought, Why on earth would be called the agency for UN Women, when women should never be put at the centre of taking the responsibility for the gender based discrimination committed, you know, almost always by men. So why should it be called UN Women. And they were a merging of four UN entities, and there were about 400 people working there, almost all were women. So I felt it was so unfair that all these women should then be tasked by a world body to solve gender equality problems around the world. So I made a proposal to the Norwegian Foreign Ministry where I made a budget (because I can do that when I want to)... So I found out how much it would cost to hire 400 gender equality male specialists from around the world, and not to put them in New York, because even though New York is a fascinating place to be in and to go to the opera and everything, I think that the work that the UN is doing, it has to be mainly done in the countries where the needs are the most. So I wanted these male gender experts, they were... I knew male gender experts from Pakistan, from Kenya, from the Philippines... that they would be embedded with the ministries of justice, health, labour, everywhere. And that that would be financed, and that they could work in their own language, and that they would have that kind of protection that I think they might need with, at least, a world body who said that you should be there. So this... I think the UN Women is now working on, obviously, more deployments, they're working closer and closer with governments, I think they're on a good track. But I was so surprised when this when this started.
Lars Peter Nissen:So your main message, if I hear you right, your main message is, what we need is champions at leadership level, we need diversity at leadership level, women, more women in senior roles does make a difference, and a bit of money, and then we're basically on the right track. Is that what you're saying.
Tina Tinde:Yeah, that's a nice summary, Lars Peter. There was a suggestion... I spoke with a woman who works on PSEA in a major UN agency the other day, because I do a lot of networking and it's probably, hopefully, going to increase with this podcst. Because together we're stronger. And she said that there had been a suggestion that if we could only send out women aid workers... because now with the Ebola scandal, the 72 women who had, none of them used the existing reporting mechanisms, they said, even if they knew about them, they wouldn't have used them, because they hadn't seen any respect by those employers. They hadn't seen it in practice. Because these women are not stupid. Just because you're poor and you're looking for a job and you live in Congo, it doesn't mean that you don't know what's going on. They actually know more than us. So then the suggestion was, Then let's only send women. And I agree that would eliminate sexual exploitation and abuse by 100%. Because all the perpetrators that I know, that have been reported, it's been men. I mean, women also can do sexual harassment in the office, you know. So we have to separate these two areas. But there's mainly men, and 100% who are reported, who go out as humanitarian workers and many of them would like to have a little bit of sexy time on the side in the evenings with the young women or whoever they recruit, because the difference in power and money, it's so major, and then I mentioned the entitlement that many men feel to women's bodies, and the issues of of selling sex, etc. There's so many who would actually need to have that little bit of income to feed their children. So yeah, you could eliminate sexual exploitation and abuse by having 100% humanitarian female workers. But my concern would be many... there would many concerns, it would be that those women themselves would be at risk, because their... gender based violence has not been eliminated anywhere in the world. So then again, we would put the burden on women. So I would I would suggest a balance, gender balance in humanitarian teams. It would take us a long way. And, of course, the vetting of candidates etc. There are efforts going on there... on that also. That's very important. That human resources, get more access to staff who can help with the proper recruitment and onboarding, so that they can weed out those people who have a CV with different holes, you know, and they can pick it up, but they need to have the time to pick it up. So that's another area in the humanitarian sector where it's very difficult for HR to have a full attention to people's background, and even what they're doing when they're there, if they don't have enough people to do it.
Lars Peter Nissen:So I feel like we've spoken a lot about Niger, and I sense a good understanding of how you're trying to change things there. But when you leave, you come back to Geneva, we hope, to continue your work here. What are your top three messages for the senior managers in the humanitarian sector?
Tina Tinde:It is to work with the donors who have this as a top priority. I realised there's a competition for activities. That's always I've always been told that this agenda advisor.
Lars Peter Nissen:Maybe let me challenge you a bit on that. So you've spoken a lot about money and the donors and how powerful that can be. But isn't that to easy... I mean, should not be looking inward? Do we really need the donors to come with a stick?
Tina Tinde:Yes, because nothing else has helped. And I am shocked that after working 32 years in international cooperation, I'm shocked that we haven't come further. So I have seen that the position that I took on prevention of sexual exploitation and abuse in 2O16, It was based... it was because of results based financing by a donor, British government. So... and I was mentioning also that it's difficult for an office manager, or head of a country office, to have, let's say, profound, constructive conversation about an area that they have not worked in before. So that's why I'm saying that we... the donors would then finance. So you can't do anything without having the people who have been educated and experienced to do it, and preferably with some local language knowledge, or at least the sense to work with local people. So yes, be strict, everybody, because we've had enough conversations about this (I'm sorry, we're sitting here talking, but I still think there's a purpose to it). And the and the second one is to start internally, to have the sexual harassment legislation conversations, to present them to new and existing staff. And the third one is to demand the same from governments that we demand from ourselves. Because there are a lot of networks inside governments. And I'm not only talking about the Global South. I have worked for the Norwegian... for Norwegian agencies, the Ministry of Defence, Nordad, a development agency, I worked for them. And I've seen that it's almost as difficult there to push this as it is in a government in the Global South. So nobody is a hero here. Nobody. So the local perspective, engaging as they do in empowered aid, such as journalists have been doing... it is to get the perspectives, to get the recommendations from the local people on what should be done. And even though I think that I know the sector, I still would learn from what they're saying. Because they would know who and which clinic would be capable of what they would know which police station has, you know... that did good work the last time somebody reported it, they would know which police station did horrible work. So also, as you know, we should work ourselves out of a job, and that's not going too well, but if we continue to have, let's say, so duplicate channels, so that we think that humanitarian organisations should have this kind of reporting mechanisms and mind you we can only do administrative investigations, we and in the international organisations, we can only decide if that person should work with us or not. We do not have the mandate to do criminal investigations, there is a huge confusion about investigations. And for me, I'm obviously happy if there is an administrative one, because then that person might be rooted out. But if that person then ends up being hired six months later in another emergency around the world, these things happen. So the main thing is actually the local capacity to investigate and to prosecute, and also to offer health and livelihoods, assistance to those who have been exposed to this kind of aggression. So yes, I would say donors number one, and then ensure sexual harassment legislation is known throughout the organisation so that people know their rights, because then they could help better on that topic on the ground. If we are... if you're afraid yourself to go to work, and you're a 25 year old woman, and I met many of them, and you end up leaving the sector because you're afraid of your boss, and your contract is so short that you are... actually some are being pushed to sleep with them, to be deployed to another part of the world. I've seen that kind of recruitment going on in a number of organisations. And then the local people, they're the experts. They are the ones, and if we would support them keenly, then they then they get a more important role. They also need access to resources, and then they could be hired by their local government. I would rather see a young woman from Niger or a young man from Niger, working on these issues in their own government than to come to an international organisation, because we're not even supposed to be there.
Lars Peter Nissen:Tina, thank you so much for your work, your leadership within this incredibly important area. It's really an inspiration what you're doing. I look forward to having you back in Geneva, hopefully in not a too distant future and to follow your work moving forward. And thank you for coming on Trumanitarian and sharing your insights.
Tina Tinde:Thank you so much, Lars Peter.