115. The Agency of Others

I thought about getting a religious leader, a military leader, but we settled on a musical director and a football manager to try to explore the craft of two very different fields—fields that on the surface do not look like the humanitarian sector, but when you dig down just a little bit, you see that the craft you need as a leader in these industries are in some ways really similar to what successful leadership looks like in our line of work.

I should say that the sound quality is not as good as we normally try to make it here on the show. It is a recording from a big room and you’ll hear some background noise, but it’s a fascinating discussion and I hope you can sort of live with with that sound quality. You’ll hear Lucy Puentes from the Start Network introduce the panel and I then welcome our two guests, Natalie Brown and Huw Evans.

It was a wonderful conversation that may be a bit messy at times, but if you really listen to what Huw and Natalie are saying, I am sure that that will resonate with your own experience and it is so refreshing to hear professionals from other industries with other languages or ways of thinking about things enrich our own perspective. So, it’s an unusual episode for us, but I hope you find it enjoyable. When you’ve listened to it, please share your thoughts on social media, give us some feedback. You can reach us on [email protected]. And if you find yourself in a position to do so, please support us financially. You can find a link on our website, truemanitarian.org. There's a big red button that says "Support the Pod." Click that and you can give us a one-off or monthly contribution. We appreciate every every euro that comes in. As always, the most important thing is that you enjoy the conversation.

Lucy Puentes: Wonderful. Welcome back! Did everybody have a good lunch?

(Audience cheers)

Lucy Puentes: Who in the room likes to play football?

(Audience cheers)

Lucy Puentes: Who in the room likes musical theater?

(Audience cheers)

Lucy Puentes: Who in the room likes to listen to the odd podcast? All of this is a session for all of you then, so it’s perfectly organized. So today, um, I’m really, really delighted um that we managed to get Lars Peter Nissen to agree to come to the Assembly this year and to lead a session for us. I don’t know how many of you are familiar with Lars Peter; he is very, very networked, which is nice for the theme of the Assembly this year. He’s a collaborator, he’s a dot connector if you like, but really, really importantly, he sits at the center of tension, of challenging conversations, of disagreements, and he manages to hold all of that beautifully through the podcast that he leads, Truemanitarian.

I think some of the session, some of the discussions we had this morning, we talked a lot about the importance of being able to connect across division and divide, about the need for us to work as a collective, as a network, to bring in different voices, to bring in different skills, different capabilities, and to work to our strengths. And we’re not always going to be in agreement, but can we at least find some common ground, some consensus that we can work around?

(Applause)

Lars Peter Nissen: Thank you, thank you very much, Lucy. It’s great to be here. I haven’t been at a Start event for a couple of years, but it feels very much like coming home—coming home to a place where we try to think new, think better, try to actually make all the talk about shifting power and so on, reality.

Truemanitarian is first and foremost—it’s about smart, honest conversations. That’s really what we try to achieve. And I’m really confident that with the panel we have today and with this room, we will have that. I also hope it’ll be a step forward in—I sometimes think of Truemanitarian as a search for the new humanitarian paradigm. We know we need change; we have had serial humanitarian reforms for the past couple of decades, and some things have changed, but a lot of things have not. And so I think we’re on a journey towards a new paradigm. And if we needed a reminder to hurry up, I think we got it in January this year, when the whole sector was disrupted and and we as an industry, if you want, lost 40% of the overall funding for our work.

And so we are in need of new answers, and I think we need to think deeply about how long we have been talking about networks. I first met Christina when she led the constructive deconstruction project where we tried to disrupt or deconstruct the humanitarian sector and build a new one, and an essential component of that was networks and network-centric way of working. Have we made progress? Yeah, I think looking at this room, we’ve made progress. Fantastic to see the news from Bangladesh this morning, for example, seeing things bubble, seeing us come together from all corners of the world. But we’re not far enough, right? And I think we need to think deeply about leadership. We think need to think about how to energize a swarm, how to create effects across the world so that we can meet the challenge that face us in the coming years.

And sometimes it’s healthy in that journey to to study other people’s craft, to look at other fields of practice and see what they can—what we can learn from each other, actually. And and thinking through this this panel, it—for me it boiled down to maybe what we need to learn is lead through the agency of others. That was sort of the most precise way I could think about it. So, how do you actually work when your success depends on the agency of others? And so we went through a process with Lucy trying to find a military officer, a religious leader, a politician, a sports coach, a musician. And we were lucky to find Huw Evans and Natalie Brown to to come join us today.

Natalie is a Board Director at the Banbury United Football Club. She has worked in media, marketing, and community development previously. She is not only Banbury’s first Black female board member, she’s the first Black female board member in all of UK football, if I understand it correctly, and has championed inclusion and engagement exactly, both on and off the pitch. It all comes together under hashtag PlayBrave. And apart from Banbury, Natalie has also worked with Arsenal, The Prince's Trust, and Mind. So that’s quite an impressive CV to have in the room.

We also have Huw, no less impressive. He is an accomplished Musical Director and a multi-instrumentalist with extensive experience across theater and orchestral music. He is right now the Associate Musical Director on Oliver, and he’s worked on shows such as Much Ado About Nothing, Sunset Boulevard, Oklahoma, and Come From Away—Come From Away, I'm so sorry. Huw trained at King’s College in London, and he brings both artistic precision and collaborative energy to every project, and we hope to this panel as well. I'm sure, actually.

(Applause)

Lars Peter Nissen: You know, sometimes when we talk about networks, we tend to talk so much about it that we don’t have time to actually network, right? So what we’ll do is we’ll just have a—I’ll ask each of you a question and have an opening introduction to how you think about leadership and your craft, and then we’ll have questions for the rest of the time. And we have Joyce and Lucy roaming the room with mics, so get ready for your questions.

Natalie, if I can ask you first, right? So eight months ago, you began building up Banbury’s female football team pretty much from scratch. Right? You’re relatively new to football management, and you are a Black woman breaking into a field that is very male-dominated, I'd say. And at the same time, if we look at what success looks like for you, there must be when the goal actually is scored. So there’s a very specific metric there: do they win or do they lose? You are a couple of steps removed from your players when they are on the field. So how do you actually—how do you work to both motivating the individuals but also shaping a collective game strategy? In short, how do you set the scene for success?

Natalie Brown: Yeah, um, thank you for having me, first of all. Um, and it’s been an interesting journey for me, um, so I am the only Black female board director of a football club in this country, which sounds very surreal to me because football is not my background. I am a football fan, I’m an Arsenal fan. Do I have any Arsenal fans in the room? Whoo! Good, glad to see it. I’ve divided the room already in the first 30 seconds, I’m sorry, my bad, my bad. Um, so yeah, I’m a big football fan, but never in a million years did I ever think that I would end up working, you know, being the only Black female board director of a club at this time.

And so when I joined Banbury, um, there was a women’s team, but it was very fractured, it was all over the place, and the manager left the week before the season started. We had an FA Cup game, that was our first game. Now anybody that knows anything about the FA Cup knows that even if you lose an FA Cup game, you get paid. So if he'd have just stayed an extra week so we could have at least have got that money, then it would have been, you know, a blessing. But he left, some players left, and um, that whole season, it was me fighting fires, basically trying to field a team. Couldn’t field a team, we kept being fined because I couldn’t put a team out, so in the end, I pulled the whole team out of the league.

So it was very disheartening as someone (a) that’s new to football and (b) just in general trying to build anything when you’re putting in so much effort and you’re just getting nowhere. But then I heard something in my head that just kept saying, "Flip the script, flip the script." And I’m like, "What are you on about?" Now I am a Christian, so I do believe in God, so I always, you know, say like have these little conversations with the Lord. I’m like, "What are you on about?" And he said, "Flip the script." So I’m like, "Okay, fine." So you know when you’re building a team, you’re normally building from young upwards. So I felt he was saying to me, "Build from old down. Flip it."

So I did that and I launched a women over 40 team. Um, and I launched four open training sessions. The first session, 22 women turned up. Second one, 32 women turned up. Then 35 women turned up. And then I ended up with a squad of about 50. And it was just insane to see the speed at which that happened when I’d been trying for months to be able to build it the other way round. And through that, now we’ve got even though it was originally classed as women over 40 team, my youngest player is 16 and my oldest player is 66, and they all play for the first team.

And honestly, just seeing how they are together, it’s like family. They’re like family. I think they’ve done more for me than I’ve actually done for them to be fair because they’re like my sisters now. Um, and it’s just beautiful. The 16-year-old loves being with the older ones, and it—the whole spirit and vibe of the team has changed from what the original team was. So that was one of my things is it’s not just about creating a structure and building a structure, it’s also the spirit behind something. The reason why I was able to build that team so quickly was because in Banbury, you have four women’s teams. So you can imagine trying to build. Now Banbury are the biggest club in the area, we have a lovely stadium, we are the really the place to be, but for love nor money, they could not build this women’s team. Over the years there’s been all sorts of things going on that it just wasn’t happening.

So I had to come in and try and change the narrative behind something that had been happening way before my time. Change the story behind it and set a new scene and a new precedent. So it starts for me, started with the spirit of it. Because there were four women’s teams in Banbury, one of them folded, and one of the players came to one of my training sessions. And because she liked who I was and what I was about, I think she went back and told the rest of the team, "I think we need to join Banbury United." And that brought a whole load of players my way because they just liked who I was and what I was trying to do. And like you said in the message, um, I’ve wrapped it all around an initiative called #PlayBrave because what I wanted to do was also take it off the field as well.

So I wanted to make it about helping women build their confidence on and off the pitch. So whether it’s the fact that you wanted to be a football player or whether you wanted to go and travel round the world, or whether you wanted to write a book, or whether you wanted to speak on stage, my whole uh thought process was around building an initiative, building something, a movement. That's what it was. That’s what I’m trying to build. I’m trying to build a movement that anyone can latch onto and run with it. And I’m part of Women in Business Network in um Banbury, and one of the women was so inspired by it that she went and had it tattooed on her wrist!

(Audience laughs)

Natalie Brown: And I was—when I saw it, I was like, "Make that make sense!" Do you know what I mean? Like, never in a million years did I think an initiative that I started, somebody would permanently tattoo it on their wrist. Crazy! Mind-blowing! So, um, yeah, that’s the power of creating something that’s not just standalone, but it actually um, it actually helps people see themselves in different ways and empowers them in in different ways.

(Applause)

Lars Peter Nissen: Now if I can ask you, Huw, when you lead an orchestra, you—on—you must in a sense bring together individual excellence and collective harmony. How do you approach leadership in that setting? What—what makes the difference? What’s the key difference in bringing together a group of talented musicians? What—what drives success and and what is it that you do that brings it all together?

Huw Evans: Okay, good question! Thank you. Um, thank you for having me, Lars Peter, thank you all for having me, and that was beautifully spoken. Thank you, Natalie. Um, I thought I’d give you a bit of context as to what I do because um, it—it starts well before conducting—conducting the orchestra in in the show. Um, so as Lars Peter says, I’m um currently the Associate Musical Director and one of the conductors on Oliver at the Gielgud Theatre in London’s West End.

So me and my team are responsible for all the musical elements of the show. So from teaching the vocals um right up to conducting the show live eight times a week. So we lead, we’ve got 12 musicians in the in the pit, in the orchestra pit, and we’ve got a 30-person cast all over separate spaces, um, and we conduct via sort of camera monitors. So I feel like leadership is, especially in in this environment, is um we lead through connection um and listening and and adaptability. But not—not really control, because there’s—lot of the time you can’t have that in a live performance.

So we start with rehearsals. We get all the cast together, all the company, and we teach the harmonies, the phrasing, um connecting to the music and the script—that lasts about four weeks. Then we get the the orchestra in and we have band calls. So we have about a couple of days with the band shaping the orchestral sound of of the show um and making sure that everyone knows what they’re doing, getting all the—getting it all cohesive.

And then we get into technical rehearsals. We go into the theater. So this is um in order to sync the lighting, the sound, the stage management backstage, wardrobe, wigs, um makeup, automation, which is the sort of automated movement of the set. And that’s really where the show’s full network comes into its own. Um, in this theater, the Gielgud Theatre is actually was built as a playhouse, so no room for musicians.

So we’re actually—the orchestra is split across three separate spaces. So we have the strings and the woodwinds are in the traditional pit. The brass and the keyboards are in a room behind. And then the percussionist is actually down in the basement in a padded—padded cell. Um, and then everything, so everything is linked via—via camera. So for the majority—actually for all of the show, I conduct straight into a camera, and there are screens—every musician has their own monitor. There’s also screens on the balconies of the dress circle and the upper circle so the cast can see when they are acting upwards. And there are also monitors backstage for the cast to sing, and also the deputy stage manager, so that’s the person who calls the show, the cues all the different um lighting cues, sound cues—there’s also a monitor there for her.

So um, that combined with we’ve got four child actors playing the role of Oliver, we have three separate gangs that rotate, um and so there’s—there’s constant adaptation required as well. So I feel like leadership in in musical theater, in the sort of conducting sense for us, is—is definitely a duet between leading and following. Because not only are we leading the orchestra, we have to follow the singers. So sometimes we have to lay down the tempo, this is the speed we’re going at, this is what we’re doing. But actually sometimes we need to breathe with the singer. They want to do it, they want to phrase it a certain way. So it’s always guiding the tempo, but responding to the actors and the musicians.

Um, I take great pride in knowing everyone’s name in the—in the building. Um, especially the the deputies. When we’ve got—we’ve got the chair holders in the in the orchestra pit and then they get replaced with deputies on a nightly occurrence, um, and I make sure to greet them before the show. Um, because I feel small gestures really foster trust, especially when it’s something as exposing as creating music. So, um, I feel really the—the ultimate thing I would say is you can’t force—you can’t force harmony, but you—you have to create the conditions for it.

(Applause)

Lars Peter Nissen: I’m sure that you in these stories heard things that resonated with the reality that that we work in, right? The the little change of actually letting people over 40 play, certainly driving people to come in, building trust and knowing people's name, right? The trying to lead a cluster coordination meeting from a camera and 50 people you never met before, that sounded like Huw's day-to-day life. And so it would be great to hear from the room, and I think Lucy and Joyce will come around now, any comments, reflections, questions to our panelists?

Angelina: Um, my name is Angelina. I’m from South Sudan. I resonate a lot with what Natalie has mentioned and it come back to believing in yourself as much as no one believe on what you are doing. But along the way you’ll have people that followed, and that’s the reality of what it look like today. And it come back to the space where we are. I believe all of us had different reason of why we are here today, and before we are here today, there’s always a story behind why individuals are here. And I was reflecting back mostly on my journey and I was like, okay, I started with my own self when I wanted to make an organization, and before I knew it I had like too many people who joined. But at first they're like, "You’re just a woman, how can you do it?" And it has not been only South Sudan alone, it has been in most places that the initiative has started many has followed and they have really appreciated it. So thank you so much, never give up!

(Applause)

Audience Member: Yeah, I'd just like to highlight what was said at the end. Thank you, Huw. The fact that you can't force harmony, you just have to put the conditions in place. I think that's quite relevant to this network as it's growing because a lot of us we're changing the way we work, we're changing our governance structure, and Start Network after all is going to be that. It's going to be not forcing harmony because that's not going to be viable. It's about making sure the conditions are in place so that we can figure out what that harmony is and the music together basically. So thank you, that was beautiful!

(Applause)

Javed Gilani: Hello, this is Javed Gilani from Muslim Hands. Um, I would say there's a saying, you know, at 40 do what you're good at, and at 50 nurture what you learn actually. So reflecting back to you and Natalie, you can take anything at any age, you know. Um, and obviously when I see sports for development, it's—this initiative having a lot of, I would see, power, especially in integration and obviously bringing the underprivileged into the mainstream. And secondly, obviously when it comes to the music, it—it gives you a lot of passion again. To me, when I was studying in St. Joseph's, so I started listening, playing music from there, and I have seen a lot of good things coming into me. Now when I am 50, I am doing something good, but the only thing which I reflect back, learning from that school and obviously from the diversity and obviously playing, singing, participating in each and every thing—this is how you become, obviously, good human resources or professional but then for what? To play your role for the betterment of society. So thank you very much, lot of encouragement. Thank you.

(Applause)

Lars Peter Nissen: Thank you, yeah, thanks for the—the stories that you’ve told us and the provocations that they’ve given to us and the synergies that we find in our own work. I think what strikes me is kind of common across the—your worlds and what we’re trying to achieve with the Start Network is the—the power of diversity. You’re not going to win a football game with 11 goalkeepers, you’re not going to have a—a good musical performance with 12 horn players, and I think that’s very true of us. And I think, you know, as we’re kind of searching for the right metaphors or models to characterize our work, I think as changemakers, we’re often kind of—we kind of like to draw from—from physics. We want a cause and effect. If we do X, we might get outcome Y. But I think the commonality for me or what’s kind of thought-provoking is that biology is maybe a better comparison for us as we think about networks. And I think when we think about the kind of outcomes that we want with biology, the defining kind of characteristic is this quality of emergence where the outcome from the constituent parts is something which is qualitatively different. So to use another analogy: if you have a human heart, it is comprised of cells and valves and cavities. And if you look at those constituent parts, you wouldn’t think that the purpose or the outcome that you get is—is circulating blood around your body. And I think that as we think about the power of network, it’s easy to look at what outcomes we can amplify from the constituent parts, but I think that you run the risk of missing the emergent quality of the team spirit or the harmony that you get or the outcomes that we could potentially achieve. So I wanted to thank you for your story and the thoughts that it's provoked about what networks are and what we can expect of them.

Natalie Brown: Can I just touch on that just for a second on on just the power of networks, really? Because I say to people that look, my superpower is getting in the room. It’s been like that my whole life, I don’t know why, it just is what it is. I’m able to get to the Oprahs and the Bransons and the the Obamas. That’s just how it’s always been. And so I think one of the reasons why it’s been that way is just because, like I said earlier, I try to be very humble. It’s never about me because if I make it about me then it’s—I’ve lost, you know, the the purpose of what I’m supposed to be here for. And you know, at the end of the day, having a picture on Instagram with Michelle Obama is great for a minute, but it doesn’t save lives and it doesn’t help the the people that need the help. But the power of networking is so key. So just a quick example with me being on the board now. For me, I’ve always struggled with anxiety ever since I had the nervous breakdown. That was one of the biggest issues that I struggled to overcome was the anxiety. So I had depression as well but that went, but the anxiety hung on for dear life. Even when um I got asked to do this, I was like, "No! No, no, no! I don’t think I’ll be able to breathe!" You know? So the fact that I’m still sitting here at this moment in time, I’m doing well. Um, but the the power of networking is key. So when I got invited to be on the board, I knew that my superpower was getting in the room and getting to the people that other people can’t get to. But in that, what I found is the—I’m feeling a little bit of hostility, if I'm honest. Um, and I feel like there’s a little bit of ego going on potentially, um, because the light is firmly on me with being the only Black female board director. So when I posted that on LinkedIn, I had nearly 3,000 likes, 105,000 impressions, 700 connection requests. It was insane! From Tom Watts, who played Lofty in EastEnders, because he’s a big Arsenal fan, to footballers and TV—it was nuts! Yeah, absolutely nuts! And it’s still going. But that’s the power of what I’m able to bring, is that I’m able to shine a light on what you’re doing. It’s not about me; it's about God opens the door for me so that I can open the door for you. So it is important networking, the power of networks, having diversity in your teams, in your organizations, in the room because, again, when I look at our board, I always feel imposter syndrome is real, right? We know, us females more than males, we—yeah, we struggle with that. And imposter syndrome’s real. So I would sit in those board meetings thinking, "What am I doing here? I don’t know anything about the the flooding of the pitch and the drainage of the whatever." And so I started to feel useless being on the board. But then I know they couldn’t do what I do. They could not build something from scratch, from bottom up, from zero. They cannot do that. They’re very left-brain people. I’m very right-brain, creative, visionary, ready, aim—no, ready, fire, aim! I'll figure it out as I go. Do you know what I mean? I'll make it up as I go. So um, yeah, just having that diversity in your teams I think is key because everybody brings something different. Um, and um, yeah, just the power of of being in the room. Because my role is a voluntary role, it costs me money to be here, it costs me money to be everywhere. I don’t get paid for anything I do, but I travel the length and breadth to help build that team. And so you can’t be upset then when the light is shone on me because I’m making the effort to get in the room to help you.

(Applause)

Huw Evans: Yeah, and I’d like to follow up on that. Main—mainly the the trust of of networks. So as a conductor, I am meant to be making music, but for three hours, I don’t make a sound. I can’t make a sound. I’ve got audience members around me. I can breathe heavily a bit, that’s probably it. So there has to be—there has to be a connection between me and every single music maker in that room. So there’s—there’s a trust there that—that they know what I’m doing, I want them to do the best performance they can, but it’s all silent. It’s all to do with gesture. So it’s just a very interesting concept of the conductor is there leading, but how—how much am I leading? You know, how—how much am I—it’s about facilitating, I guess, music-making and productivity silently through a camera. It’s just very—an very interesting concept, I guess.

(Applause)

Anna: Hello, I'm Anna from the Philippines. Just a practical question. Um, there are days that music is dissonant or, for example, that you have your vision and it doesn't work the way you envisioned it, or things doesn't fall into place. So what are the things that you, you know, think about or do, just practical tips that maybe we can use like when dealing also in a in a setup where we are growing and working different—like in a network where people are really diverse, different, but then um trying to come together. Thank you!

Natalie Brown: Um, for me, first and foremost, I always, like I say, faith is very key for me, so I always will go back to God and say, "Did I hear you right? Am I in the right path?" Because once you’re sure that this is what you’re called to do and this is where you’re supposed to be, then the vision stays the vision. But you will have days where you will feel like this is just not working. So I always—I have like a um a board, kind of like a mood board in the house with everything on it that I’m believing for and dreaming for. So I always try and keep that front and center to start with to, you know, keep the vision right in front of me so that I know that this is what I’m supposed to be achieving. And then I’m a great believer in small steps. So sometimes you can get overwhelmed when you’re trying to fulfill a a dream because you’re looking too far ahead at it. Um, sometimes you just have to rein it back in and just think, "What’s the next practical, obvious step that I can take that will just move the needle just a little bit?" Doesn’t have to be massively because all those little movements will finally get you to where you need to be. So I just have this thing about 15 minutes. Just take 15 minutes. What can you do just for 15 minutes, even if you feel like you don’t want to do anything, you’ve had enough, you’re tired, the vision stinks, blah, blah, blah. Just for 15 minutes, what can you do? It could be just sending an email or just making a call or just doing a little bit of research. Just that. It sounds—it sounds like it’s not going to make any difference, but 15 minutes each day adds up, you know? So just take it back to basics, take it right back to basics, um, and just for 15 minutes because that won’t overwhelm you. What can you do? Like I say, something simple, just email or call or even just go back and reflect on the vision to reignite your wires to why am I even bothering with this? That can sometimes just spark—or get on a call. Get on a call. Call me! Call me. Yes! Call me. Yeah. But yeah, just call—call a friend, call somebody that believes in your vision, believes in what you’re trying to do, and hopefully that’ll get you back on track.

Huw Evans: Um, thank you for the question, interesting question. I think it’s twofold in in my area because you’ve got the live aspect of the show. So if something goes wrong during the show, my gut would be just to stay calm. Right? You’ve got a camera on you, so every department is looking at you if something goes wrong. Have the reserves in place. We have two or three understudies per leading role. We also have a standby Oliver, so another little child in the in the backstage waiting, and that has happened before. So we’ve had one Oliver sing up to halfway through, then he’s felt sick, the show hasn’t stopped, Oliver’s got ready backstage, into wigs, into makeup, into costume. One Oliver’s toddled off side stage, another Oliver has come back on seamless, you know, seamless. So you have to have the trust that backstage things are happening, which they will definitely be happening. Remain calm, communicate with your stage management, and—and just breathe. I—I think breathe when you’re in a live situation like that. Then if it’s gets to more an existential thing of, oh gosh, now I’ve got to conduct the eighth show of the week, I am exhausted, what have I—what have I got myself into? I think that’s when the reflecting, the soul-searching comes in. It takes a lot of energy to get up there and be passionate and energetic about about a show when you’re conducting it eight times a week. So I think definitely self-reflection is—is a—is a must.

Amanda: Hi, I'm Amanda. Um, just to say I feel like I'm learning a lot about even being a parent, you know, by flipping the script and um trying to really listen, take 15 minutes, like these are also like good life lessons. Um, but my question is kind of in line with um similar to what was just asked, but more about, you know, in our line of work, you tend to be in rooms in these networks with vast diversity and a lot of varying opinions and different visions. And so when you’re trying to collectively come together with a vision but you have competing visions amongst people in the room, very strong opinions, potentially lots of different egos in the room, um, how do you bring those synergies together and differing opinions to come together and to create a cohesive network to be able to work together move forward? Um, thanks!

Natalie Brown: Um, yeah, great question. Um, yeah, I have that situation with the board um and in football with what I’m doing at the moment. And I think one of the key things uh for me and how I’m trying to handle it is it goes back to the power of really, really listening. Um, and it’s ironic because I was saying to the guys earlier, I have a hearing problem. So I’ve got hearing aids in right now, hearing aids in, and um, I don’t believe it’s a problem that will last that long, but it is what it is. I have to wear them for now just to be able to just get the higher pitches. But I sit back sometimes and I reflect. I’m like, "Okay, well why have I got this issue?" But sometimes maybe I’m being a taught a lesson that I need to listen more, you know? Um, I need to listen and not just listen, I need to really hear what they’re saying. And that—and that takes work, and that is something that is a learned skill, to be able to actually be quiet and just let the person express, let them say what they want to say, give them their time, give them their space to be able to express themselves, and just really listen. And sometimes that’s where, you know, it—it’s not about being heard and and um you trying to get your point across. When you’ve got a lot of people fighting for a lot of different agenda and trying to do things in different ways, sometimes the best thing is just to pull yourself back from it and just listen. Listen to what they’ve got to say, listen to how—not just what they’ve got to say but how they’re actually saying it, and then take some time out to then assess what is the best way forward. So, I know it’s not—it’s not easy when you’re in a dynamic where there’s a lot going on and a lot of people with different opinions and different ways of doing things, but for me, I think sometimes the key is in the listening first. Don’t worry about what you have to do or trying to get your point across, listen to what they have to say first, and then take some time out to reflect and then figure out what’s the best way forward from there.

Huw Evans: Yeah, that’s an interesting question. Um, I think it’s tricky in the arts, I think it’s tricky in theater because everything is so subjective. You know, we’ve got the dots on the page for the score, we’ve got the words on the script for the text. Um, so I think collaboration is key at the start, at the start of rehearsals, where you—you utilize everyone’s life experience, um but also with the higher perspective of what—how the score was written, what style, you know. Um, to—and ultimately you’ve got again the balancing act between the—the final word of the director or the producer in some cases, um and the team collaboration of how they want it to be, you know, to be expressed. So I would say collaboration at the start and then clarity during the—during the run of the show. Um, you know, we’ve set up this vision of what the show is, um if we have deputies coming into the pit or if we have actors coming on as um understudies, then it’s about clarity um and of following what the vision is that you know is for this show, I would say.

Chris: Hi, my name is Chris, and I work for HelpAge International. Um, thank you very much for the very inspiring and eloquent stories. You triggered in me just a story about the Start Fund and women’s football because um in Haiti, we got some funding from the Irish government and the Start Fund and Cordaid and um to work through our partners SOS and Coral. And what we do is we try to put power in the hands of communities to develop, design, and implement their own recovery projects rather than rather than telling them what’s good for them. Because I think over the years, the sector's um tended to think it knows what’s good for people, but actually people know what—what they want for themselves. And so we—we gave these small grants, some of them funded by the Start Fund, to these communities who are in the aftermath of of earthquake in Haiti. And um, they designed their own programs. And obviously what you think they’re going to want is—is food or shelter or water or healthcare or blankets, because that’s kind of the things that traditionally the sector gives them. But the project that I found most inspiring was that women’s groups in Haiti said, "With your funding, we want to organize a women’s football tournament." Because like oftentimes we think that what people need is kind of material things after a crisis, but they actually need psychosocial things as well, which isn’t often so well-catered for by us. To bring them hope and kind of, you know, improve their spirit. And so the—these Haitian women’s groups organized a women’s football tournament. They got all the women around to play football and it really sort of gave them a sense of pride that they can organize their—it and a sense of fun that they could kind of, you know, play football and have a good time and come together as a community, you know, in the in the midst of—of a crisis. Um, so that that was just one story about the Start Fund and football. Um, I support Chelsea.

(Audience cheers and boos)

Natalie Brown: You had to end it with that, didn't you? It was all going so well until that point, yeah! But I love that, I love that. I think that, you know, football, sport, any sport, it has a way of bringing people together because as I was going through one of my health issues, it was going to the Arsenal and going to the Emirates that actually helped me mentally get myself together. So, you know, for 90 minutes, I’m sat with my boys in the stand because as you can see, I’m a talker, and—and so I know everybody in my stand. So we’re all family in my stand. And then you got the 90 minutes with the boys on the pitch doing what they do. Um, and it’s so much bigger than that. So sometimes when you can wrap something around um something that’s less pressured, that’s less worrisome, you know, the fact that yes there’s flooding or yes there’s a lack of this and a lack of that, and try and just raise the vibration a little bit more to help people to change their thinking, um, that—that has a great way of bringing people together and then certain things, certain creativity can stem out of that that maybe you wouldn’t have thought of when you’re in a more pressurized environment. So um, yeah, love that.

Marvelous: Um, hi guys. Um, my name is Marvelous. I work for the Red Cross, I’m a user researcher. And I just want to highlight Natalie’s point about the flipping the script. Um, I work in a team that’s looking to design how we support people in communities and building resilience, and I think that flipping the script is so important. I think um as a sector, we’re at a time right now where we need to be thinking of doing things differently. So flipping the script is really important I think. And Huw, to your point of the duet and the dancing, I think even in this designing of new solutions, I think the—there’s so much power in releasing control. So when do you control and when do you actually relinquish the control? I think that—that duet example was so nice to see because you do need to enforce but also let go and let things happen by themselves. And I think sometimes we struggle with that. So it was so nice to hear you say that how you have to be there but also not be there. And also how to—to actually flip the script, you need to kind of lose control as well, right? But like what’s that balance? So thank you so much for both of you just seamlessly kind of speaking like about the same thing. Yeah.

Natalie Brown: Yeah, and that’s not an easy thing to do as well, is it? Like giving up control, like I’m finding now with the women’s team that I’m at that point now where anything you see on Banbury United Women is me. So when I go to training, one of the players has got a one-year-old. So I’ve got a one-year-old on that side, I’ve got my phone on this side trying to do content. So as soon as I’ve gone home, I’m editing all the content, putting out all the content, um, writing the match reports. I’m doing everything to do with the women’s team is literally me. And it’s—yeah, it can’t continue because now I see that I’m better positioned to be in these rooms talking and and sharing and and and supporting you guys and and the team. And even with the women's home, I'm finding the same thing now as well where um it’s a case of I’ve held onto this dream for so long, right? This has been me carrying this dream and this women’s home for so long that I’m at the point now where I have to release it and let it go. And whenever I put a post out about it, it seems to just get people fired up. So I have people messaging me, "Right, have you tried this person? What about that person? Let’s jump on a call. Let’s see who knows who." And so I think that sometimes you have to know what lane you need to be in. If you have to do everything for a season, fine, for a season, but don’t, you know, know—bring the team in that you need to bring in, release control, and let other people fly with the vision.

Huw Evans: Yeah, and similar thing with in an orchestra, you know, it is the most terrifying, vulnerable thing to—to relinquish control when the show is started. You’ve got the pressure of a live performance, 1,000, 2,000 people behind you wanting to see like a seamless, beautiful show. To what you perceive is relinquishing control from, you know, but—but ultimately when the tempo’s set, when the drummer’s in, when the bass player’s in, when the keyboard player’s in, you can just let it go. And then your job then becomes to facilitate, shape, energy, and excitement. But that initial step of relinquishing the control is terrifying, you know? And you are—you do put yourself—but ultimately what you do is you put the trust in the players and then they come back to you with going, "We—we’ve got this. We—we can do this. And we’ve got you and we’ve got the best interest of the show at—at heart."

Heather: Um, I’m Heather from Start Network. I’m a researcher. I really valued what you were saying about um sort of bringing things back to basics, and I think that came out of both of your examples, is simply meeting people, building trust, knowing people’s names, taking baby steps. Um, I think that’s something we can all learn from. Um, and also I’ve been—sorry, this isn’t well-thought—well-thought-through idea, but I’ve just been grappling as you’ve been speaking. And I know this is a session about leadership, but I’ve been thinking about networks, your football teams, and orchestras, and whether they always need a leader. Sometimes are they kind of spontaneously created and can they lead themselves? So just wonder if you have any thoughts on that. Thank you!

Huw Evans: Yeah, it’s a—it’s a funny—it’s a funny thing I think with—with music. I think you can easily play music without a leader as such. Actually maybe a little example would be now. If I gave you all a note to sing, right? So let’s just sing ah, right? Give me a ah. (Audience sings) Right. Now I want you all to collectively come into together. (Audience attempts to sing together but it's disjointed) You know what I mean? Whereas if I go (Huw conducts with a sharp movement) ah! (Audience sings in unison) Do you know what I mean? So there’s that sort of thing. If we’re then singing a song, I won’t need to, but I think in terms of having a—a leader for the beginnings and ends of things, yeah. Beautiful ah, by the way!

Natalie Brown: Um, yeah, I would echo that. I think it goes back to—not everybody can lead at the same time. So maybe there’s breaking it down into certain parts of um if it’s a particular project. Well okay, well you lead on that section, and you lead on that section, and everybody stay in their lane. Because not we’re not all good at everything all the time. So it’s understanding people’s skill sets, let—and then being able to relay that to them in the best way possible so that they know that you really are amazing with numbers and need to stay over here and not go over to social media and try and do all of TikTok and—it’s not what you’re supposed to be. Yeah, so just understanding people’s skill set. Let them—and then being able to—yeah, like I said, empower them from from there.

Huw Evans: And I think literally carrying on from what Natalie said, I think it’s all about perspective as well. I think so many people can be in their lane and want to shift lane because they don’t see the bigger picture. Whereas, you know, as a conductor, you see the whole show every night from out front. You see what—what works, what the audience are focusing on. And then even then when I do a show watch where someone else conducts the show, um I go out front and watch it all. You can see exactly what’s being heard in the orchestra, what’s being sung, what—what the focal points are. So then it’s relaying that information back to the soloist or the performer to say, "Actually in that point, you know, you—you can’t really be seen or heard so it’s okay to do this, this, and that."

Natalie Brown: Yeah, and that’s not an easy thing to do as well, is it? Like giving up control, like I’m finding now with the women’s team that I’m at that point now where anything you see on Banbury United Women is me. So when I go to training, one of the players has got a one-year-old. So I’ve got a one-year-old on that side, I’ve got my phone on this side trying to do content. So as soon as I’ve gone home, I’m editing all the content, putting out all the content, um, writing the match reports. I’m doing everything to do with the women’s team is literally me. And it’s—yeah, it can’t continue because now I see that I’m better positioned to be in these rooms talking and and sharing and and and supporting you guys and and the team. And even with the women's home, I'm finding the same thing now as well where um it’s a case of I’ve held onto this dream for so long, right? This has been me carrying this dream and this women’s home for so long that I’m at the point now where I have to release it and let it go. And whenever I put a post out about it, it seems to just get people fired up. So I have people messaging me, "Right, have you tried this person? What about that person? Let’s jump on a call. Let’s see who knows who." And so I think that sometimes you have to know what lane you need to be in. If you have to do everything for a season, fine, for a season, but don’t, you know, know—bring the team in that you need to bring in, release control, and let other people fly with the vision.

Chris: Hi, my name is Chris, and I work for HelpAge International. Um, thank you very much for the very inspiring and eloquent stories. You triggered in me just a story about the Start Fund and women’s football because um in Haiti, we got some funding from the Irish government and the Start Fund and Cordaid and um to work through our partners SOS and Coral. And what we do is we try to put power in the hands of communities to develop, design, and implement their own recovery projects rather than rather than telling them what’s good for them. Because I think over the years, the sector's um tended to think it knows what’s good for people, but actually people know what—what they want for themselves. And so we—we gave these small grants, some of them funded by the Start Fund, to these communities who are in the aftermath of of earthquake in Haiti. And um, they designed their own programs. And obviously what you think they’re going to want is—is food or shelter or water or healthcare or blankets, because that’s kind of the things that traditionally the sector gives them. But the project that I found most inspiring was that women’s groups in Haiti said, "With your funding, we want to organize a women’s football tournament." Because like oftentimes we think that what people need is kind of material things after a crisis, but they actually need psychosocial things as well, which isn’t often so well-catered for by us. To bring them hope and kind of, you know, improve their spirit. And so the—these Haitian women’s groups organized a women’s football tournament. They got all the women around to play football and it really sort of gave them a sense of pride that they can organize their—it and a sense of fun that they could kind of, you know, play football and have a good time and come together as a community, you know, in the in the midst of—of a crisis. Um, so that that was just one story about the Start Fund and football. Um, I support Chelsea.

(Audience cheers and boos)

Natalie Brown: You had to end it with that, didn't you? It was all going so well until that point, yeah! But I love that, I love that. I think that, you know, football, sport, any sport, it has a way of bringing people together because as I was going through one of my health issues, it was going to the Arsenal and going to the Emirates that actually helped me mentally get myself together. So, you know, for 90 minutes, I’m sat with my boys in the stand because as you can see, I’m a talker, and—and so I know everybody in my stand. So we’re all family in my stand. And then you got the 90 minutes with the boys on the pitch doing what they do. Um, and it’s so much bigger than that. So sometimes when you can wrap something around um something that’s less pressured, that’s less worrisome, you know, the fact that yes there’s flooding or yes there’s a lack of this and a lack of that, and try and just raise the vibration a little bit more to help people to change their thinking, um, that—that has a great way of bringing people together and then certain things, certain creativity can stem out of that that maybe you wouldn’t have thought of when you’re in a more pressurized environment. So um, yeah, love that.

Sarah Allen: Hi there, I’m Sarah Allen from Save the Children. And um, yeah, thanks both so much; a lot of what both of you said in very different ways has certainly resonated with me. I had a question perhaps more for Huw, but maybe also Natalie. I’m curious particularly when you’re thinking of um conducting live, um we talk a lot in our sector about failing forwards, making mistakes, how do we learn from mistakes? Um, and that actually mistakes make us innovate and make us better. But in practice sometimes we’re not always great when mistakes are made. And yeah, I’m interested to understand what you’ve learned from leadership when mistakes go wrong on the night, but you’re having to in real time kind of innovate and and make and sort of grow from those mistakes, but you don’t have time to sort of send emails and put lessons learned on because you’re on stage.

Huw Evans: Yeah, yeah, that’s a really good question. I—I think it is about resilience and and growing a thick skin. Um, literally about two weeks ago, I was conducting, we have a thing called click tracks in in theater where um everyone has a sort of metronome in their—in their ear that we sometimes add extra vocals on or we need it because the stage is moving at a certain time so we need the timing to fit exactly with the music. Anyway, so it was the end of the first song and I just pressed the button at the wrong time, and it was absolute carnage because we had the live children singing "Food! Glorious Food!" then we had the pre-recorded children singing "Food! Glorious Food!" all at the different time, and it was absolute carnage. And I thought to myself, "Right, you’ve got an entire rest of the show to do. What you gonna do in this moment?" And you’ve got no other choice, basically, other than to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, try not to look embarrassed and and flushed, and just keep going with a bit of integrity as well. So I think it’s just a case of suck it and see, sadly, really, yeah.

Vi: Um, good morning—good morning, I’m Vi, sorry, still working on the Philippine time. So, I’m Vi, Rise Me Enayati from the Philippines. Um, and Start Network is beco—is now a network of networks, and in the Philippines there are several network of networks as well. Um, and so um my question is related or inversely related perhaps from the question of Heather: how do you lead a network or a group where everyone is a leader? Um, and also in relation to the question of the friend from Guatemala, um, there are moments um when um, because we’re trying to change a system, right? So um, in the—in such network, um there is—there are times when the leader um cannot be the leader at that moment. So how um in your experience as a choreographer, as a orchestrator, how or who will orchestrate when you’re not around? Thank you!

Huw Evans: Yeah, I think—I think grace would be the right word, you know? Sort of try and employ a lot of grace. There’s a lot of egos in theater. There’s a lot, um, I’m just thinking of my current leading cast now. I hope they won’t be—won’t hear this. Um, so it’s—it’s allowing space. I think it’s allowing space for them to to fill their egos and to and again be heard in a way. And—and then there’s also the flip side of that of going, "Right, but for this um specific incident, this specific um thing, we need structure and we need and we need leadership." So it’s almost kindly saying, "I see you, I hear you, but we’re going to have to do it my way, I’m sorry." Um, and then and the similar thing with in orchestral players. A lot of our deputies are, you know, principal instrumentalists in the Royal Phil or the London Philharmonic or something, you know, really high-class solo—solo players. Um, and I think then that is more of, I would say, a trust to know that this is a small ensemble piece and that you have to slot in. Play your solos when you—when you need to play your solos, but ultimately it’s a—it’s an ensemble piece.

Natalie Brown: Yeah, I would echo that. I think it goes back to—not everybody can lead at the same time. So maybe there’s breaking it down into certain parts of um if it’s a particular project. Well okay, well you lead on that section, and you lead on that section, and everybody stay in their lane. Because not we’re not all good at everything all the time. So it’s understanding people’s skill set, let—and then being able to relay that to them in the best way possible so that they know that you really are amazing with numbers and need to stay over here and not go over to social media and try and do all of TikTok and—it’s not what you’re supposed to be. Yeah, so just understanding people’s skill set. Let them—and then being able to—yeah, like I said, empower them from from there.

Chris McIver: Yes, good afternoon. Thank you very much for the excellent presentations. Um, I’ve got a couple of questions for Natalie if I may. Um, my name is Chris McIver and I work for HelpAge International. One of the things that we’re very interested in as an organization is to see the engagement between younger people and older people, because it doesn’t happen very frequently or not as frequently as we’d like to see it. So Natalie, you were mentioning about having some—you know, somebody at the age of 16 and somebody at the age of 66 in your football team. So I’m kind of intrigued to know what you think they might have learned from each other and how that dynamic works out. I’d be very interested. And two very quick football questions if I may. Um, one, this is a bit of a loaded question: why is it that some of the best football managers come from Scotland? And secondly, um, why is it, and maybe there’s a lesson for our sector here, that some of the best football managers were never very good at playing football? Um, so any reflections on that would be much appreciated. Thank you!

Natalie Brown: Um, yeah, great question. And that’s something that I’m seeing now. Um, I think I touched on that with the team that I’ve currently built where, even though originally the goal was to um create a women over 40 team, um we’ve seen young—I’d probably say the majority of our players are under 40, um even down to the 16-year-old that we’ve also got. So in my head, the vision that I had with with also kind of um building it as a women over 40 team was not just having it as a women over 40 team but having it as a generations of of players. So let’s say for instance having the women over 40, the moms are playing, and then the daughters, which is exactly what has actually happened in this moment right now. So we’ve got Wendy who’s the mom, she plays in the team, and then we’ve got Laila who’s the daughter who’s 17, she also plays in the team, and I can also envision a time where we’ll have like, you know, a grandchild somewhere playing in the Wildcats and the Squad Girls, the younger. So having a whole generation of players at different levels at the club, which would be amazing for not just Banbury but for football. That’s the—that’s the original pathway of how you build out a football team, like I said in the—in the beginning. So I think it is important to um to have all ages involved. Football allows that, thankfully. Um, and that’s definitely something that I’m trying to do to be able to—I think once you capture the parents, you kind of get the children as the byproduct if you know what I mean along the way, which is—is handy. Um, but I also want to be able to show the younger the younger players what the older players um are doing and what they’re capable of. Because for me, this is more than football, remember. This is about building confidence for wom—in women and for women, and it’s just I’m being given the vehicle of football in this season as the way to do it right now, and that’s shining the brightest light on everything else that I’m doing. So whether it’s film screenings like I used to work with Warner Brothers, they would give me their films um because they knew I had an audience and they would let me take their films before they were released in order to empower women. Um, so the vehicle just changes for me, but it’s always about the women no matter what age group that they’re—they’re in.

Kevin: Hi, I'm Kevin with World Vision, and um would love actually to hear from Lars. Thank you so much, Natalie and Huw for your insights; really interesting um to hear your stories and thank you so much. Um, Lars, you sit at the intersection of many things and you see the humanitarian world in perhaps a different way than many of us do just because of the place you sit in and your experience. So would love to hear your reflections on what you have heard and where do you see applications to our humanitarian work? Um, what can we learn from what you have heard today? Thank you, Lars.

Lars Peter Nissen: Thank you. I was thinking about how to to bring this together, and I was thinking: don't start cramping all sorts of conclusions in here. Because I think each of us have in our heads sentences that will sort of explode over the couple of—you know, insights that’ll be generated in the coming days. Because both of you have spoken extremely powerfully with very sort of visual and precise examples that that resonated with my experience. So I—I have three points to—to for us to—three questions that I want us as a community to reflect on.

Do we have the right story? We talk about storytelling, we talk about narratives and the power of that. What is the story we tell ourselves about the humanitarian sector? What is the story we have told in this terrible year where we’ve been—think about Gaza we spoke about this morning, think about what we lost with the half of the resources. What is the story we tell ourselves, to stay in your world, are we playing offense or defense? If the world pivots, how do we pivot with it, and what's the story we should have? The—one of the colleagues spoke about more organic metaphors, better for networks. Is the humanitarian reset an organic or mechanical metaphor? Can you cramp the conversation we have had today into a logframe? I think not. So that’s my first question that I want us to reflect on: do we have the right narrative to actually drive ourselves forward?

Secondly, do we have the right toolbox? Right? You hear the toolbox that—that our two wonderful panelists have—have illustrated for us. What’s our toolbox? What—what are the tools you use when you lead in your individual organizations take out? How do they work? Do they create the trust, the social connections, the agency in others that can drive our—our project, the humanitarian action forward? Or are we more on the line of ensuring that the few money we have left are controlled tightly so we don't get in trouble with the donors? So that’s the second question: what’s the toolbox we’re using?

And then thirdly, to pick up on something you said, Natalie: how can we find those 15 minutes every day? Because if we find those 15 minutes, that actually adds up. And so if we can work differently for 15 minutes a day, I think we’ll get there. So that was my answer to—to your question.

We have a couple of minutes left and I’d love to hear from both of you. What—what’s on your mind now? You didn’t really know what you were going into and and both you expressed a certain level of apprehension over lunch, but now we we got through it in one piece, I think. What—what’s the takeaway?

Huw Evans: Um, I think that connections can be so easily made. I—I feel—I feel a warmth resonate from—from you all, and I feel that it—talked a lot about how hard it is to make connections, but I think it’s also very easy and and um so thank you for being a warm—warm audience. And just how—how all the universal sort of things of connection and trust and harmony sort of transcend all the different—these different disciplines, I think. You know, um, and it’s been very interesting for me to—to open my mind to to this, that it’s not—I’m not just pigeonholing myself in—in that world of theater, that these—these aspects are all universal, I guess.

Natalie Brown: Um, yeah, I would echo that. I think it goes back to universal—not everybody can lead at the same time. So maybe there’s breaking it down into certain parts of um if it’s a particular project. Well okay, well you lead on that section, and you lead on that section, and everybody stay in their lane. Because not we’re not all good at everything all the time. So it’s understanding people’s skill set, let—and then being able to relay that to them in the best way possible so that they know that you really are amazing with numbers and need to stay over here and not go over to social media and try and do all of TikTok and—it’s not what you’re supposed to be. Yeah, so just understanding people’s skill set. Let them—and then being able to—yeah, like I said, empower them from from there.

Lars Peter Nissen: Thank you so much. I have one last point I just want to throw in: Liverpool, you'll never walk alone. And a huge thank you and applause for Natalie and Huw, you've been absolutely fantastic!

(Applause and music)