Themrise Khan and Mabala Nyaluwge both work in the aid industry Themrise for more than 30 years in South Asia and Mabala for seven years in East Africa. Together with Lars Peter Nissen they explore the state of aid, the change that is needed and whether it is possible to achieve this change from inside the system, or whether it has to be done from the outside
Transcript
This week's episode of Trumanitarian is with Themrise Khan and Mabala Nyalugwe. Regular listeners may be familiar with Mabala, who also appeared in episode two, where we discussed racism and colonialism in aid, you can find that episode in our feed under the title, "Humaniwoke". Both Themrise and Mabala are both passionate about improving the world. They come from South Asia and East Africa, respectively, and have both worked in the aid industry. We talk about the difficult choices you have to make when there's a disconnect between the cause you serve, and the institutions you work in. It's a personal and nuanced discussion and I would like to thank both Themrise and Mabala for coming on the show and giving such excellent answers to my questions.
Next week's episode will take up exactly the same issue. How do we square the circle of the individual and the institution but from a slightly different perspective? What do you do when you work in the upper echelons in one of the largest humanitarian agencies in the world and try to balance your inner humanitarian realist with your humanitarian heart. But for now over to Mabala and Themrise. Enjoy the conversation!
Themrise Khan and Mabala Nyalugwe, welcome to Trumanitarian
Mabala Nyaluwge:Thank you.
Themrise Khan:Thank you,
Lars Peter Nissen:Themrise, you're coming in from Karachi in Pakistan today. And I think it's been it's been very depressing over the past weeks and months to hear the news about the flooding in Pakistan. How are things now?
Themrise Khan 2:28
Things are not very good. We are still almost 33% underwater - 33% of the whole country. And there are still as many millions of people displaced at the moment. It's been almost a month and most areas are still underwater. Relief isn't getting through. The government doesn't seem to be doing anything. There are a lot of calls for humanitarian aid internationally, we're waiting for that to come in. A lot of it has not come in as yet a lot has been pledged. But on the ground, the situation from what we're hearing and seeing is just absolutely terrible. People are dying, they're dying of waterborne diseases now, malnutrition, hunger, they have no shelter, and Winter's coming. So that's even more of a problem. Children are the worst hit. Because they're the most vulnerable and susceptible - women as well. It's just an overall terrible situation. And it's it's one of those cases where the humanitarian industry really, really hasn't been able to do much, unfortunately.
Yeah, I've been trying to follow the situation. But But I haven't found that much news about it, to be honest with you. And for me, what was interesting was to contrast it to 2010 when I was in Pakistan to the flooding that year, which were also very large, but this is even bigger. And at least back then there was a lot of international attention on the flooding. i How do you see those two crises?
Very different. I mean, I also recall the 2010-2011 floods and they were very bad, but for some reason the system kicked in. It wasn't a perfect response. There were a lot of problems there as well. But you know, civil society, international humanitarian sector, our own people, everybody somehow managed to do something or the other. It was also of a lesser scale, but nevertheless fairly large. It covered many provinces as well, from north to south. This time around, I think we were a caught completely unawares. And then the rains just came out of nowhere. So just the extent of what we're seeing is something that really threw us off. So I completely sympathise with the fact that we don't have the ability or the capacity to to address this ourselves. We desperately need international support, but also contradictory is why we're not making enough noise ourselves this time around. Given climate change is such a huge global topic. I think we're just being overshadowed a lot by The political scenario of the country which has been very unstable for the last couple of years, and that's taking precedence, unfortunately, unnecessary precedence.
Lars Peter Nissen 5:10
Yeah, clearly there's, there's a lot of competition for attention these days. And I think we're feeling the ripple effect of Ukraine, not just in terms of the impact on the food pipeline, but also in terms of just how much resources and attention are sucked into that terrible crisis. Also, I wanted to ask about Pakistan and what you see over these 10 years, because what we will try to do today is contrast the two perspectives of you Themrise families and of Mabala, you have written a number of blog posts about how we you you after 30 years in the in the aid industry feels like aid left you rather than you leaving aid, so in other words, reflecting back on on 30 years of experience in the industry. And Mabala you have for seven years ago began working in aid in different kinds. And I wanted to hear what, two female aid workers from the Global South from South Asia and from East, South Africa, what your perspectives are on the industry we work in. Maybe a good way to begin, this would be Themrise, maybe walk us through the argument you put forward in your aid left me blogpost
Themrise Khan 6:28
Sure, um, I, I mean, that's a very, very personal blog post that I wrote on my personal blog site. And basically, after spending so many decades in an industry that I joined with so much passion, and it was rare in Pakistan. In those days, that industry was still fledgling, we didn't have many international organisations operating in the country. Most of them were offshoots of the Iranian refugee crisis in the 1980s that we experienced. But the entire development sector, as we know it today, was still getting off the ground in Pakistan, particularly at the community, at grassroots level. And I was very fortunate to be able to start my career at that time, you know, to see it build up and off the ground. But 30 years later, almost 30 years later, after working in the sector in many roles. So I was a practitioner, I was a field worker, I was a researcher and an evaluator, policy advisor. I just realised that everything that I had learned, and I've learned a tremendous amount, don't get me wrong, it's been amazing. I wouldn't be what I am and where I am today, if I hadn't experienced all that. But what I found frustrating was that nothing had changed in my country. Since the day I started working in the sector, not the language, not the terminology, not the approach, not the you know, the outputs that we call in this industry, nothing, it was all exactly the same. And you think in three decades, we move somewhere, right. And that was very frustrating to me. To top it all, I also felt that the industry was very exclusive. And I was again fortunate that I was part of that exclusive set. And by exclusive I mean that it was highly international donor led. So it was not Pakistan led at all. And so I think subconsciously for many years one, I know I denied that reality, it was just how it was. And it seemed that that's how it was meant to be there was no questioning. But gradually, as you know, the world changed, and maybe not the industry, you did start to question, particularly when you saw your own country sort of get worse and worse and worse over time. So eventually, I decided this is not for me anymore, you know, I can't use that same language anymore, I can't be subservient to an approach that I can't identify with. And I certainly can't communicate in the way that you know, the sector wants me to communicate with my own people. So eventually, after many years towards the end of my career, I would say the last few years, when I actually did experience head on conflict with a lot of the clients that I worked with, I decided it was time to, you know, leave this behind. And so I did, and I was fortunate that I could, because a lot of people can't because, you know, they have, I mean, I just had a different situation. So I could and 30 years is a really long time anyway, you know, to move on. So I did leave and I am now focusing my attention on what not to do in development and moving away from the conventional, you know, approaches that people tend to still perpetuate and use and of course, the entire idea of white saviour ism and racism which It's bizarre and I experienced racism so many times, certainly throughout my career, but I never picked up on it. Never. It's only now that I'm realising I look back, because of the conversations that are happening. And you know, I just a memory clicks. And I think I've mentioned a lot of those little sort of sound bites in my blog about, you know, personal experiences over the years, that I just look back and think, Oh, my God, how did I stay quiet? How did I not react to that? So it was it was very fascinating. So yeah, that's that's what the blog series is about.
Lars Peter Nissen:So Mabala, tell us a bit about about your experience, where you're coming from, and how, what Theresa has said now and written in her blog post, how that resonated.
Mabala Nyaluwge:My first degree is in public affairs and human rights. After I did that, I was working in Uganda, with local organisations and human rights organisations. Kind of felt that NGOs was struggling a bit in Uganda. First of all, there's so many of them. And I just think the dependency on money from the outside can cripple sometimes what they can do. So I kind of left the NGO sector to go into what I thought would be a bit more impactful, and began working in design thinking. So working for a design firm that was helping other international organisations and local ones just design better projects that were based on research in the ground. And that was looking to just have more impactful projects. Right. And so I did that for a while, but also found that a lot of what was happening in the development space in in Africa, specifically was very western driven. And I also thought that, you know, stuff has to be more more localised. And what does that mean? So, kind of went back to school just finished my master's in development studies and gender. And the point of that was to just to understand where this development comes from, and just understanding how its structured, theoretically, and how that can be applied to creating more impactful change in Africa, for example, that determines his blog, I think, what I found really interesting and a bit depressing, actually, was how nothing has changed. And so for me, again, I really, I really think harder than that, because I'm like, if you're speaking and you've been working in this sector for quite a long time, and you're reflecting back now, about how not much has changed, and I've also not worked as much as you, but in just my small amount of time. And thinking of moving forward, I think the question is, is how do we bring change, for example, and for me, particularly when you mentioned the whole white slavery, white severe ism, and just how the West is involved, I think what was really striking for me during my course, so I went to a school that was is focused on African and Oriental Studies. Excuse the Oriental I don't think that word should be used. But anyways, um, and it was quite fascinating to see how, in that programme where a lot of the curriculum would be based on Africa, I would say maybe less than 10% were Africans. That to me was very sad already. The people who were in that room doing this degree, I was the minority, right, when the continent was going to be heavily discussed. So for me, that already was a bit like Okay, so who will be working in this sector? Right?
Lars Peter Nissen:Right. Like to pick up on something you said Mabala, you say nothing has changed. I can see one change, can we should you say to us, I didn't realise the racism I were I was subjected to its lightbulb moments decades later, that certainly replays in my head. Whereas I think if I listened to you marvel at the and your generation, I mean, there's a heavy discussion about colonialism and decolonizing, and racism. So for me, the question to both of you is, how does it make a difference that today, this is something we talk about this is part of the discourse?
Themrise Khan:Well, I think to begin with, this has always been part of the discourse, I think, even in the 1990s. When I started off in my career, and majority of the theorists and the authors and the development practitioners that we had to read, because my initial degree was also in development studies and as my master's as well, we're all white. And yes, nobody questioned that. And that became the norm for how the industry and the sector was designed. But I know in the background, like when I was at university, I went to university in Canada, and we know that the indigenous population in Canada and the indigenous issues there are very strong, and I felt those even way back then. Right. I mean, now you hear it louder, but they were always there. The difference was, I think nobody was listening to it. Right, and even if you were the powers that be were too strong, so they never allowed that to come ahead. But the voices were always there. I've also argued about decolonization, when I write about it is that voices regarding decolonization of any sector, decolonization post colonial societies as a whole even has been around since the 1970s, the African law nor Latin America and Asian scholars have written about it. So we have a lot of literature and scholarship, we've got a lot of people who've been in the human rights in the freedom rights movements in many countries of the Global South, it's just that nobody paid attention, or rather, a specific group did not pay attention. And we allow that specific group to maintain power and control. So I, I understand that you see the change in the sense that now this is all very much in the open, and we're all talking about it openly. And I think that's something about this generation has an advantage to and we didn't, but I also feel that this issue goes so deep into our psyches, that this is just the tip of the iceberg. And I think it'll take many decades more, to unpack it, to bring it out and actually see this in action in how we work in the world, how our society is structured in different parts of the world, etc. So yeah, it's a change, but it's also not a change in a way.
Mabala Nyaluwge:Yeah, I just wanted to add to that, I think, and for me, who's now like, I'm job hunting, so who's now going to be thinking to get back into the sector? I think it's been great to be in the academic space, and to have all these discussions, you know, decolonization what does that mean? How does that look, but again, to your point, I'm also wary about how that translates in actual practice, right? With organisations? And if they're actually willing to have these discussions and change how they operate. And for me, what kind of scared me a bit is it just seems like such a big system that how do you even bring that to the change makers? And for me, I'm thinking maybe you kind of have to like work outside the system? And how do you work outside the system? And so that's kind of what I grapple with. Because, again, it's such it's such a strong establishment that has been in existence for so long. And so yeah, it's great within these discussions, but how do you practically bring them to be accepted? And I think it kind of has to be done on the outside, I kind of think people have to work on the outside.
Lars Peter Nissen:Is that that outside that you have stepped into Themrise? Is that what you do?
Themrise Khan:Yeah, exactly. That's exactly it. And believe me, it's been two years, and I'm still trying to figure out exactly, you know what the outside is. But I completely agree, this is exactly where I would want to be, I don't want to step back into that world anymore. And I'll just give you an example of how dangerous that world is. So you know, decolonization and Mabala uses localization, right? So these are the two big buzzwords that are going around the sector now. And everybody thinks this is this is it right? We've discovered how to fix the system through decolonization and localization without really understanding what they mean, or whether or not they're even relevant. And I hear now, NGOs in Pakistan, which is far removed from this discussion, by the way, you know, Africa is very much into it. But South Asia is still, we're not there yet. But I still see now a lot of NGOs using these words. And these are NGOs that are funded by donors. And donors want these words used because it makes them look good. It makes them see as it now we are really trying hard to change and to listen. And so it's hijacking these NGOs in Pakistan who don't understand what the colonisation and localization mean, and even if they do they interpret it differently, but nobody's giving them the opportunity to express it that way, because they are still tied to donors. So I mean, even these approaches really end up hijacking the actual process. Right? So which is why again, being in it is very dangerous. And so yes, I've stepped back from it completely. So I can openly say that I don't agree with these two terms. But then you need more, but I do know that it can sort of people will resist it. And so how long can you manage that resistance and continue to stay out that outside that space? I think that will judge how many people then choose to come outside that space? And then really give it the the effort it needs?
Mabala Nyaluwge:Yeah, and Themrise as you as you were speaking, I was just thinking about this, again, back to this localization and how that's looking in Africa as well. I think there's been a transition now to have international organisations that are in Africa have local staff, right? That's a big move. And so this is moved to to show that this is, uh, you know, we're putting the Africans now at the forefront of, of, you know, of practice and development, but at the same time, where's the power, right, so who's funding these projects? So again, to your point, you I think to your point, it's like yeah, so we put this picture of: No, but we're hiring local locals now have have power in the organisation, but then the money is still coming from somewhere else. And that money is still dictating what kind of work is being done. And again, so it's just this cycle of like, oh, yeah, this change, but really, where's the power? And for me, it's about that power like, because the power dictates what work is done.
Lars Peter Nissen:So I think my first question to both of you is, what is the language then that we should use? How do you avoid this co-opting of terms that we've seen with decolonizing and localising?
Themrise Khan:So I have recently, co-written co-authored an article on terminology that used in global development and global health. And that involves, you know, developed versus developing North versus south, east versus West, Rich versus poor. And that's all this terminology, this very condescending terminology that the sector has perpetuated in English, mind you, in just one language, not even French or Spanish, you know, the other colonial languages, but just in English. And I think the conclusion that we came to in that article is that you need to let everybody select their own form of expression. How would you like? How would they like themselves to be represented? In the world and amongst their own people, right, we don't give that opportunity as well. And that requires a lot of of discussion, you know, you can't come up with an answer or a solution for something that is so ingrained in, you know, just a year or two, even this is an ongoing process that we've just sort of begun. But I think the soul searching, there's a lot of soul searching that we need to do amongst ourselves, particularly in the Global South. And that has been the crux of my, I think, mission is that I would like to ignore the Global North, we know what they're all about, we know that they're resistant to change. But what about us in the Global South, we are also resistant to change. We are also we have had absolutely no soul searching amongst us, because we have been so dependent on support from outside guidance from outside, you know, our entire look at our countries, they they were born out of the embers of you know, somebody else's control. So I feel that there needs to be first a lot of soul searching amongst the Global South itself, which is no less racist, mind you between each other, which is no less unequal amongst each other, because even the Global South, we've got variations, you know, not every country is poor. Look at the regional differences that we have South Asia as a region itself, there are so many differences, cultural, social, economic, historical, even though we all went through the same history, right. So I think we haven't dug deep amongst ourselves first. And I think once we do that, then we can talk about you know, so what are the other alternatives that we have? What are the other options that we have?
Mabala Nyaluwge:Yeah, I was, I just think away from language. And I don't really focus on that, because I think that can be quite divisive. And it's what we've been using so far. And it's not really working. I go back to also like, yeah, what do we actually want to fix? Do we even know what we want to change and fix ourselves? I think everything has been so prescribed for so long, is that we just go along with things. And this was kind of my issue working at these local NGOs. It was just like, oh, what can we find funding for? As opposed to like, what can we actually change? What do you actually want to change? You know, in our communities and organisations, it was more like, oh, there's a proposal for this. So we'll just apply for that. Even though it's not really an issue that's, you know, pertinent, or, or that, what's the word that immediate, right? And so again, I think that whole cycle has to change, we have to stop looking to this money to fix and actually think, what do we want for ourselves? What do we want to change? How does it work outside the system? I don't I don't know how it works outside the system. To be honest, I think that's something I'm still I'm still thinking about. I think for for one, one thing I've always been thinking about is just restructuring. And this is an old idea is this whole NGO model, discuss it so many times this reliance on on funding, I think that has to switch for example, again, when I left Uganda, I think what made me really sad and even working back there. It's just seen the number of placards I said this many times of NGOs are doing the same thing. And for example, why can't that model change? Why can we actually be you know, for example for like a human rights organisation that received funding for for their projects, and I was thinking why can't that organisation start training? Its staff and human rights, you know, why couldn't they have like a, like a module that taught basic human rights for other community workers? So I think for me, it's that it's it's changed that is self sufficient, but kids They'll bring income into the, into the, into the community.
Lars Peter Nissen:So what I hear you saying Mabala is we need a new business model, we need new money and a different way of working. But some ways at the same time I hear you saying, I don't want to have the agenda set by the Global North I in a sense, want to ignore them and work with the improvements we can make where I am. Now, if you if you do that, don't you run the risk of ignoring where the power is, where the money is? And how can you then influence them?
Themrise Khan:I think that's exactly what we need to do. We do need to ignore the power. We do need to I guess, push them away and keep them at arm's length. And I feel it, a lot of people think that sounds very drastic and unrealistic. But in my opinion, I think that's exactly what we need to do. Because we've tried to work with this system for so long. And every single time it has taken advantage of us, and it's disappointed us. So why can't we just break away and develop our own system. And once we do that, I think we will be on more equal footing, where we can then talk to the northern powers as a southern power about how it is we do what we want to do. And we both need to contribute. It's not I mean, the equality will come and both of us contribute to the same tune right now, because one is majority contributor, that's why the other one is under them. So for me, I think the radical way out, and it can only be radical, that's my that's my firm belief is that we do need to push them away from us, we do need in the short term, to find a way to perhaps support ourselves until we get to that position where we can stand up on our own two feet. And I think that is possible. There are a lot of ways alternate ways of funding that our own countries can generate. But we because of our own internal you know, political disagreements don't want to do that, you know, so there's a lot of corruption, a lot of nepotism, we don't collect enough taxes, we misuse our own resources, we our wealth distribution is extremely unequal, you know, within our own country. So why don't we work on doing that, and then build our own internal strength, and then we can talk to the others in the Global North, the powers that be?
Mabala Nyaluwge:I agree. And I think I was saying this before, like, changing the model, I give the example of the human rights organisation like not relying on that power as well. I think it's interesting, though, when I think of how this will play out and how it's done, I think it really has to be an independent effort, because now I just think of, of the countries in Africa, which do benefit from aid, the governments that love this aid. And so there's a lot of push to have that money still coming in. And so again, for me, as an actor who wants to change that I'm just realising how it's going to be, it's going to be hard, because who will you work with and who will support you? Because, again, a disorder so lucrative and people like receiving it?
Lars Peter Nissen:So both of you arguing that radical independent position, some reason outside the system, metabolising, you know, I see the NGO getting sucked into this business model. So you want quite a radical shift. So So then my next question is, two things, I think that means that quite a lot of the institutions we currently have working in this space needs a radical transformation, and probably initially a reduction in size, because a lot of the resources come from the outside is. So that's a price worth paying, is what you're saying.
Themrise Khan:Absolutely. I mean, I know on the face of it, it sounds very callous, because you're talking about people who've built a career in this sector, suddenly, you know, just seeing themselves redundant. So he's absolutely it's going to have a lot of risk in in taking a radical position. But then that's what does happen when you choose a radical position. But I have a feeling that's not going to happen. I mean, I'm just wishfully thinking here about all these different options. Because I think right now, one trend that you see, particularly in a lot of international NGOs is this whole idea of where we position ourselves, let's be imagined ourselves, you know, let's find a different way of working. And I think all that is a desperate attempt for everybody to stay relevant. And I don't think that's just in the Global North. I think that's in the Global South as well. There are waves of change coming the sources of funding for us are drying up in a lot of places as well, including UN humanitarian aid. And we are realising that we have to sing to a different tune as well the powers the global power structure is changing. So we are also having To adapt. But the whole thing about adaption Is that you, you know is that the foundation remains the same. You're just adapting to the foundation shifting around. And I'm saying, let's change the foundation altogether. Let's just break it down. And let's see if we need to even rebuild it. Because that another big mantra is, you know, let's build back better, according to the World Bank, but do you actually need to build something back? What if there's another way out? And honestly, we won't know unless we don't try. And I don't think we're trying because we're scared of trying, which is, which is a natural instinct. But I really think we need to get ourselves out of this comfort zone where we need to constantly say, oh, but the money is coming from there. Without that we can't even think about change, I think we need to get our our minds out of that thought process as well. And that way of thinking only then will we be able to perhaps think about other ways of doing things. And if I could just maybe interject another point in there, which I feel strongly about. And it is this that even amongst ourselves, we will find that there will be a lot of disagreements, you know, just because for instance, for South Asians doesn't mean we all agree with each other. Right? We are different countries with different histories and different cultures and different backgrounds. There's a lot of historical baggage that we carry. It doesn't mean that, you know, people who are from Africa will work seamlessly with people from Latin America, or Asia, or vice versa, right? I think those are barriers and obstacles that we have to accept, because there are there there are historical, but we have to work through them. And my point is, let's work through these barriers first, before thinking about how do we as a collective work against the barrier with the noise, which is why I constantly go back to saying, forget the noise. Let's focus on ourselves. That's where we will be able to actually find some sort of an alternate solution. But I think it's important for us to acknowledge that there are gaps between us as countries of the Global South as well, and need to also identify those barriers and those gaps in those perhaps those animosities and work our way through them.
Mabala Nyaluwge:Yeah, I think a few things stood out for me, Themrise, was when you were speaking, and I think that's the adaptation because yeah, you're right. That's happening a lot, right? Yeah, funding has been cut all across Africa, as well. So there has to be a new way of working and people are thinking about that. But again, it's still within this system, right. And the other word was radical. And that's something I've always been thinking about as well, I'm like, for the rate change to come about, it does have to be completely radical, and people are scared to be radical. And that's part of the reason why we just get comfortable. And I think for me, as I've been thinking about how we change things in this sector, I think one thing I've realised which you kind of touched upon when you were saying, we have, even amongst ourselves, we don't always agree, I think what I've always what I've also learned is that not everybody has the same desire, you know, for this kind of change to happen. The people who are very happy with the system, how it works, even from the Global South, right, who are benefiting and are very happy in those roles, roles that they played and how they benefit from it. And so for me, I think one thing, personally, I'm learning or will be trying to learn is to actually find people, your tribe who think like you, and who want to do this, and to realise not everybody is going to be on board that same way. Forget cultural differences, just people in the sector who still want to benefit from the sector who still wanted to exist, there's that as well. And so I think for me, it's again, stepping out and finding people who who think the same and actually want this kind of change to happen, but being realistic that not everybody is things like that.
Lars Peter Nissen:So a lot of what you have said around the need for new business model, and how we need a radical shift and change there, even if it means that we we have a setback in terms of people losing their jobs, and maybe some institutions going out of business that currently exists. For me that a lot of that resonates with me I can I somehow feel comfortable with that. Where I am less clear is that if we take for example, where we started this conversation, the flooding in 2010, versus the flooding we have right now in Pakistan, one of the things we spoke about some reason was how there's much less response now. And so what is your thinking around a radical shift, reducing not, not the livelihoods of aid workers, but the ability to actually get assistance out to people affected by crisis? That that seems to me to be a harder price to pay.
Themrise Khan:I mean, that's a difficult question to answer because of course here you're talking about saving human lives, right. And we've seen I think one of the biggest, I think changes that I've seen are not a change that existed in the 20 that day. and floods as well and it exists in today as well is how much our own people have galvanised to come out and help. Right. I mean, Pakistan is one of those countries when we have a massive, massive natural disaster that's when our people to become out and help. We saw it in 2005 earthquake, the 2010 floods and we're seeing it again now. So forget the government, it was our own people on the ground people who may not have any humanitarian experience, but completely galvanised. And trying to get into those remote cut off locations to bring in as much help as they can to their people. Right. I think using that as a springboard one needs, one can use that and say, so there is hope there is a new foundation here that has existed for decades, even centuries, maybe that we have an ethos of assistance, both monetary as well as technical as well as knowledge base that exists in our countries, we just don't allow it to develop. And we fall back on these global mechanisms and systems that are so packed off and isolated from the real world. But if we allow these systems, I mean, I don't want to use the word local, for lack of a better term. These are the systems in the organisations that have a very, very homegrown ethos, and a lot of them even refuse foreign aid. Yet they are able to galvanise and mobilise communities and resources to help where help and take it where it is the most needed. So I think we have a roadmap, we already have examples that exist, and I am sure every country in the world has, has a roadmap like this that exists, our challenge is to let that vote up, develop. And for me, that is where the assistance will come from. Having said that a case of the flooding that we have seen this year, is far, far too enormous for that sort of a system to assist at this point in time. So we definitely need international aid and help. Like we just cannot do it without that. But then there should be there should be a bifurcation in terms of you know, where the international system should step in, and how it should step in. I think there needs to be a lot more soul searching, and a lot more. I think management of those scenarios, as opposed to saying no, they are only the experts, and they are only the ones who can come in when needed. Nobody else and everybody should seem to that direction. So I think that's the approach we need to take. And I think ultimately, that's where north and south will meet eventually. At least I hope so. I don't know if that makes any sense. But but that's the way I see it, we need to have that homegrown ethos are those homegrown organisations managed and run by homegrown individuals and citizens and groups, and then know when everybody else needs to come in? And where and to what extent?
Lars Peter Nissen:No, it makes a lot of sense to me. So I think the key question is, obviously, how do we engineer that interface? How do we engineer that nexus without reproducing the dominance from the north that we have today? Marbella, what's your thinking on this issue?
Mabala Nyaluwge:Yeah, so I think I'm coming in from a bit of a different angle, because I am not I haven't worked with like emergency and disaster, you know, responses. So I think that that's different. And I think what Themrise said, I resonate with I, I speak more towards other development projects, where I think, you know, look, countries locally, can, can devise what that looks like. But even back to the as, as you both were speaking, I was just thinking if these homegrown organisations aren't allowed to grow, because we're always depending on this aid. But this is the problem. We're just so dependent on, on assistance from outside, we don't have the time to actually grow and improve our own system. So I think again, it has to be managed in a way that we can also grow ourselves independent. Of, of the West. Again, that depends on the on the on the crisis, and the magnitude of it, as we see now in Pakistan hope is needed. So that's, you know, there's different cases, but I think there is room for that nexus to be better managed, and for people on the ground to have better control and power as to how, how aid is given and when it stops and how it's managed. You know, we shouldn't just be having our arms open just to receive everything that comes our way. We should say, No, we don't want this or yes, we want this. Yeah. More agency.
Lars Peter Nissen:You have spoken quite a bit about how this monolithic way of talking about the Global South or the Global North or, you know, the way we like to put each other into really big boxes and, and sort of manoeuvre in that way. How that is not a good way to work. Themrise, you've been talking about how you need to actually almost construct the language in a specific context, in order to, you know, deconstruct the power in it in a sense. And I think my question is to both of you, you are your women from the Global South from different continents. You but you also both studied in Canada, you actually started studied in the same town in Ottawa. And in a sense, maybe you're both part of what we would call the trans-cultural elite. You fly around the world, you do development projects, what is your thinking on your how do you guys fit into the picture? What is your thinking on identity? And if you're not just in the big Global South box, which box are you in? If any?
Mabala Nyaluwge:Yeah, I'm not, I'm not gonna going to answer the question, I think. But one thing that came to me when you were speaking, that just came into my gut was just the privilege of that right. And so I think it's a privilege to even be able to have these these discussions right of creating change. And someone I spoke to just told me not to be scared of that, like, even though you're aware of your privilege, how do you use it? So for me, because, I mean, we're discussing how to change the system. And if someone has a good job, and it's benefiting from it, why should they change that? You know, what I mean? Like, I feel like, it's a very privileged thing to say, like, oh, let's just dismantle everything. And so I think I'm learning to own that and still know where my role is, you know, and what I can do to bring about that change with that privilege. And so, yeah, so going to Canada, and what that you know, afforded me and actually, I also wrote a blog post about leaving Canada and why I thought, you know, all Africans, actually, it was like, should come back home, you know, brain drain and all that. But again, that's also a privilege thing, like, coming back home means many things to different people. And so I'm aware of that. And this is why I think we all have our own, you know, cross to carry wiht all that. So I haven't really answered your question. But I've said some things.
Lars Peter Nissen:I think you have, I think you have. Themrise, what's your reflection on on what Mabala said and on your own thinking around your identity?
Themrise Khan:Identity has been a very, I think it's been very front and centre for the last few years as well. My identity has primarily been as a Pakistani and a very privileged Pakistani, because I come for from a middle class background in this country. So I have seen privileges. I've been to private schools, I've been able to study abroad, I've worked in some of the biggest, you know, organisations in this country. So I think my privilege within my own country is the first level of identity that I have to accept that I am way, way better off than majority of my own country's citizens. And then having to traverse even beyond that when I moved to Canada. And part three of my blog is my about my life and development in Canada, is basically an eye opener that you've got yet another level of identity to deal with, as having traverse boats, you know, to different parts of the world into different continents into different cultures. But I think that's what made me realise what belonging and identity for me, it really is, it also really helped me decide exactly where my role is like Mabala just said, and my role is very much Global South centred. I mean, I may have an administrative identity of the Global North as well. But I am through and through Global South. So I don't think I am as conflicted as a lot of other people like myself are, I truly believe that no matter where in the world, I am, I will always be a representative and a member of the Global South, because that's what shaped my entire life had I moved to another country much younger in my life, maybe it would have shaped me differently. But because I moved to another country, you know, when I was in my 40s, my identity was already pretty much decided. But privilege is also where I am in the Global South, as well. So I think that's that's a different layer that one needs to contend with. In terms of who one is.
Mabala Nyaluwge:Yeah, I think I agree with the way Themrise put it about it being in the Global South, I think it's the same for me. So even if I've lived in many places, I think my heart still beats for that, like that, that will always be the end goal of developing the Global South or of Uganda or of my continent. So that that's like my anchor. So yes, I've been influenced by all these other things, but my anchor is will always be that.
Lars Peter Nissen:Throughout this conversation, your focus has very much been on deconstructing the concepts, the business models, the institutions that we produce inequality or that re-produce colonialism if you want. Now you are both quite fiercely independent in the way of thinking and in the way you position yourself. So I'd like to ask you as the last question, for you personally, what are the what are the top three things on your mind? In terms of, of creating the change you want to see? Let's take Mabala first.
Mabala Nyaluwge:I mean, the top three things is, I think now it's just independence. So when, with independence, I mean, again, back to this point of working outside the system, and finding ways to just completely change how that works and working with people who think that thinking the same way, so for me, it's being outside the system. We've already discussed this. And it's radical as well, I think we need to be fearless. And we need to be comfortable with being radical. I think, again, what Themrise was saying about, like, adapting, that's not good enough, right? People are slowly changing things I mentioned how, you know, you have more local staff being hired and projects and all that. But that's just, that's just the cover, there's no real change happening. So for me, it has to be radical. So independence radical. And the last one, I think I'll just is community is finding people who you can actually work with people who actually resonate with your ideas, and are willing to be independent and radical with you. So it's community and finding people who can be... Think, think the same way and want to do the work with you in the same way.
Themrise Khan:Yeah, I mean, well, the first two are spot on, completely agree with Mabala, my first would also be independence. And I would extend that to not just individuals moving out of the system. But I think organisations, communities and countries also thinking independently about moving out of whatever system controls them. Absolutely radical. You need to be radical, if you want to see the type of change you are talking about. Because I think a lot of people don't realise what they're talking about is radical as well. They just don't want to use that word. So absolutely. We are at a point in our global history where we are, I think, as as as a world as no falling apart. Right? So if you're not radical now, I don't know when you will be I don't think we'll have another chance. So absolutely. My third one would be how to put it, it would be it would be gathering knowledge, I think, I think we've already got a lot of knowledge from, you know, obvious sources, but there's so much knowledge still out there that we don't know about ourselves and about our own communities and our own societies. And I think that is what will shape our own thoughts, opinions, and ideas moving forward. So I think the idea of knowledge gathering is key local knowledge gathering indigenous knowledge gathering is key in our striving to figure out our own roles and our own identities and our own way forward.
Lars Peter Nissen:Themrise and Mabala. Thank you for coming on to military and it's been fantastic to have not one but two heroes on the show. I admire your dedication, your energy and your relentlessness. And I look forward to seeing the fireworks you'll create in the years to come. Thank you.
Themrise Khan:Thank you very much Lars and Mabala. It was It was an honour to share this stage with you.
Mabala Nyaluwge:Thank you, Themrise. It's it was really it was really insightful to hear and I'm looking forward to reading more and seeing what you're doing as well and I hope we can stay in touch.
Themrise Khan:Likewise, likewise and all the best for trying to move out of the system if that's what you want.