70. Edgy Diplomacy

[Lars Peter Nissen] (0:54 - 1:50)

Sara Bukhari works with the Center for Humanitarian Dialogue on the peace process in Yemen. Yemen is not only a country haunted by a brutal war, and one of the most severe humanitarian crises in the world. It's also a country that can be found at the very bottom of the various statistics on gender equality. So what is it like to be one of the few women in a very male-dominated discussion and negotiation about war and peace? That, and many other issues, is what Sara and I discuss in this episode. It's a powerful conversation that needs no further introduction. So it's only left for me to say, share it widely. Let us know what you think. And most importantly, enjoy the conversation.

Sara Bukhari, welcome to Trumanitarian.

[Sarah Boukhary] (1:50 - 1:54)

Thank you so much, Lars Peter. It's a pleasure to speak with you.

[Lars Peter Nissen] (1:54 - 2:05)

Yeah, we pulled this together very quickly. I'm really happy we managed to do that. You're the program manager at the Center for Humanitarian Dialogue here in Geneva, and you cover Yemen.

[Sarah Boukhary] (2:05 - 2:06)

Yes, that's correct.

[Lars Peter Nissen] (2:06 - 2:17)

Now tell us, what does the Center for Humanitarian Dialogue, or HD as it's also known, what does it do in sort of in general? And then specifically, what is it you do with Yemen?

[Sarah Boukhary] (2:18 - 3:06)

[Lars Peter Nissen] (3:07 - 3:24)

Can I just ask you? So that's a big, very broad ambition to have. We want to prevent and alleviate and address these humanitarian crises. But what does it look like? Do you, you don't send blankets, I imagine. I imagine you send people. So how does that work?

[Sarah Boukhary] (3:24 - 6:28)

[Lars Peter Nissen] (6:28 - 6:42)

Now, you say that HD is a private organization, right? And as such, I guess you don't travel on diplomatic passports, you don't have a mandate from the UN. And so how does it work? Who pays for you? And why would people listen to you?

[Sarah Boukhary] (6:43 - 7:50)

One of the things that I actually think about when also presenting our work in a very pragmatic and concrete way is that I say that we are a weak mediator. By weak mediator, I mean that we may not have the big carrots and sticks that state mediators or formal mediators have, but we have lots of other things that uniquely place us in a space where we can advance things in the right direction, where much bigger players cannot. One of our biggest sources of wealth is our people. And it is so because our people have a very unique and seasoned political analysis. They have very, very good connections to the hardest to reach actors in very challenging situations. That comes with a price, which is us engaging in high-risk missions, going to areas that even UN staff or other big organizations don't send their staff to.

[Lars Peter Nissen] (7:51 - 7:59)

So really, it is almost like a complementary diplomatic tool in the toolbox that can get into the smaller spaces that maybe the big organizations can't get into.

[Sarah Boukhary] (7:59 - 8:35)

Exactly. Obviously, that always comes with a very important thing that HG is always keen to safeguard, which is the buy-in of the actors. We don't like to step on anyone's toes. So we're not the kind of organizations who wants to recreate a peace process where it already exists or to step on the toes of organizations that are already part of a certain space. Wherever we are requested and where it's in line with our mandate, we are happy to explore how to best support.

[Lars Peter Nissen] (8:35 - 8:38)

And is it a hard sell? Is it difficult to get in the role?

[Sarah Boukhary] (8:39 - 9:42)

Sometimes it is, sometimes not as much. I think the biggest investment we put in, especially on the onset of building a specific engagement, is gaining trust. And in order to build up trust and sustain it, it takes a really long time. It takes years to do that. And it takes a lot of effort to sustain this trust. And this is why we at HG work in a very discreet manner. And confidentiality is really one of our main pillars from an operational perspective. We really like the media in general, but we're not one of those organizations that exhibits the things that it does on social media. Not for any reason beyond it being an important tool to protect the trust that we worked so hard to gain with armed groups, with political actors and others.

[Lars Peter Nissen] (9:42 - 9:53)

Yeah, I know that that's very understandable, the need for confidentiality. And to be honest with you, I feel like all of us are falling over each other to get on social media. So it's great that you...

Collecting the likes and the shares. I mean, yeah, it has its own benefits, but not when you tap on sensitive political issues.

And so how long have you been working with Yemen?

Oh, I've been working on Yemen for more than eight years now. It's one of, it is actually, it has a very special place in my heart. I've worked on Yemen before I joined the Center for Humanitarian Dialogue. And it's one of those contexts that really doesn't cease to fascinate me. It's very complicated, this political situation, but the history is so absolutely fascinating. Yemenis, I mean, I don't want to, at the risk of generalizing, I think are one of the most generous, kindest, warmest people I've ever met. I'm yet to be proven wrong, but I really enjoy working on Yemen, despite the volatility in the context, despite its complexity. And yeah, it occupies a big part of my life.

So were you part of the beginning of HD's engagement with Yemen? When did you start working with?

I would say relatively, yes. When I joined HD, there was already two colleagues that have already started building up the engagement. And right after I joined, we really beefed up the program on Yemen. We really grew organically, expanded the team. We have colleagues who are also based inside of Yemen because for me, it's a very important principle to operate, is you can't really work on a context without engaging the people that know the context in and out, that speak the language of the people, that understand the mentality. And most of the time, if not all the time, it's the people coming from that context as well.

So we've grown quite organically since I joined, but I had formidable colleagues who were there before me who set the foundation of this work.

So eight years is, it's a long time actually to engage with one context. And so you must have quite an in-depth understanding, both of the context, but also of the key players and have those trusting relationships with the key players as you spoke about. It may be my sort of my biases, but I'm wondering what is the gender balance like in these negotiations? You're Lebanese, you are what I would describe as sort of mid-career. And so if you've been at this for eight years, you just must have been fairly early in your career. And so what is it like to be first a woman? I imagine maybe there is a handful or a few of you in a male-dominated environment like that. And how does that play out?

I think it's a really good question and reflection at the same time, Lars Peter. I think to answer your question in very simple terms about gender balance, there is no balance. And unfortunately, it's a space that is quite hijacked, not only just by the senior, most powerful players, but I think the more I get enmeshed in the context, the more I see that there's unfortunately a pattern where you see the big guys with the big guns hijacking the space even further. And there's very little space within the political landscape now for actors like political parties who don't necessarily have a military representation and they shouldn't have. So I'm quite frustrated and sad to see that after all those years, also observing the dynamics playing out on Yemen and so on, the space is shrinking for those that haven't demonstrated their power on the ground through military means. And I think this is deeply alarming, especially for a country that has always been known for being so pluralistic from a political party perspective, very diverse, very rich, both culturally, historically, and so on. And I really hope it's just a black storm that will eventually disappear.

But how do you personally fit into these negotiations? You speak of really the hardcore military actors gaining more and more space. You don't have guns. You're not a man. I would imagine it's somewhat younger than some of the people that you engage with. What's the dynamic?

The dynamic is an interesting one. I would say it's very difficult and it's one of those spaces because of all these elements that you just mentioned. I always feel myself in a position where I have to prove myself. I think after eight years also making and building these connections and developing them, I'm a bit past that for those that I've already established. But it's always a battle to assert yourself as a woman in those spaces, tapping on very sensitive issues. And because there's this general conception that women need to be talking about women's issues. There's no such thing as women's issues. All issues are women's issues. The military is a woman's issue. The health is a woman's issue. Politics, education, everything is a woman's issue. So it's a very difficult space to carve out. But I think knowing how to speak the language of your interlocutors is also an important tool that you need to utilize in a smart way. Knowing the context is something that obviously works in my advantage. Speaking the language is really important. I mean, I'm an Arab. I speak the language. Obviously, a different dialect. But I've learned how to understand Yemeni dialect with all its diversity over the years. I sometimes speak it. Sometimes they laugh at me, but still. So we understand each other. That's basically the baseline. I think also the religion can also play an important role. And Yemenis being open, it just makes things a little bit more fluid. You rarely find a Yemeni, even with the hard to reach actors. Like I've sat during my missions to Yemen in the middle of nowhere with representatives of armed groups that have never met representatives of international organizations, let's say. And I was able to have a dialogue with them. Not because I'm a superwoman. Absolutely not. It's because they know how to use the tool of dialogue and discussion and exchange. One thing I was also able to use as well is to find a space to be part of what is called in Yemen, Makyal. And Makyal is basically a place where Yemenis chew cut. And cut is basically a mild narcotic leaf that is very popular in Yemen and the Horn of Africa.

And can I just say, even though I only had a few days in Yemen, in the afternoon, you don't want to be driving in Sanaa.

No.

Because everybody is high.

Absolutely.

And it's like, if you haven't seen it, dear listeners, it's like a tennis ball in one cheek. It looks hilarious. And it doesn't improve your skills as a driver. I think we can say that.

Absolutely. Absolutely. One thing I always tell to my superiors at HG, one thing I certainly cannot guarantee is road safety in Yemen. It's not the bombs. It's not the kidnapping. It's the road safety and the driving skills.

Exactly.

So being part of that space, Lars Peter, is also like I've had some of the most sensational political discussions and exchanges I've had. And it's so fascinating also to observe, even if I'm not proactively taking part in the exchanges, just seeing men from different political parties sit together and exchanging, even if they're really on the opposite end of the political spectrum. Because it's seen as a socialization exercise. It brings people together. I don't want to romanticize it a lot. But at the same time, I think it's a very unique thing to Yemen.

And the reason why I'm saying I have the privilege also to be part of that is because it's gender segregated. You don't find a woman there, except me, when I'm in those spaces mixed together. So you have these parallel maqā'il that are women only, and you have those that are only with men. And because of my work, I'm able to integrate those. And it's also important, not just for the discussions themselves, but also building those rapport with the people.

So you sit there in the afternoons, chewing your cat like the rest of the participants, getting slightly high. It's a great way to work, actually. It's a good job you have. And I think my assumption would be that the reason you can get into these forums, in spite of them being segregated, is that you're probably also seen as an international. All right, so that sort of is, I guess...

Non-Yemeni, I would say.

Non-Yemeni, yeah, thank you.

Yeah.

Now, you spoke before about some of the obstacles there are about being a woman in these circles, not quite being taken seriously, having to sort of assert yourself. But are there also doors that are open to you that are not open to men? Because you happen to somehow sneak into these forums. Is there something where you can see that actually you can do things that they can't?

Absolutely. I think there are certainly quite a lot of obstacles to that. And I'll answer that before moving to the other point you raised, Lars Peter. The obstacles are quite numerous, also because Yemen ranks, I think, the last country on the gender gap index. So discrimination and sexism are quite prevalent in Yemen. And especially with the impact of the war, women have even less space to play an active role, especially when it comes to decision-making roles. And despite the sacrifices that Yemeni women have made for their country before the war, during the war, and now, in a period where there's somehow a stagnation as well in the conflict, those spaces are becoming more and more limited by the minute. And I think that perception vis-à-vis women, obviously, it stands true to me. But because I'm non-Yemeni, I have the privilege and I always feel this responsibility to use that to a bigger cause. And to me, I sometimes have this, I feel a bit culprit in taking part in those spaces when Yemeni women can't and they shouldn't. But I try my best to use that in a way that actually supports things moving in the right direction, seeding ideas, proposing certain things, sharing some lessons or some ideas that happen in context. Obviously, Yemen is a very particular context, but there's still quite a lot to learn in between, in context, I mean.

I think also one of the obstacles is also that there is this perception that, yeah, well, women in politics, how does that work out? There's this preemptive discrediting exercise of your political abilities as a woman. And this is where this constant battle to prove yourself comes in. And it's pretty disruptive in general. But you just have to go with the flow, use the space while you still have it and push it in the right direction.

What are some of the moments you think of in this journey that really, where you thought, yeah, now we're getting there. This is a real success moment. I see a door opening and I helped open that door.

What were they?

I think there's quite a few that come to my head, but the one that stands out is one of the missions I've done with my colleague who's also Yemeni himself in a governorate called Shabwa. It's actually central Yemen, but a little bit more to the south. It's very oil rich, has very interesting dynamics. It's like a microcosm of the regional and national dynamics in Yemen. And it was a very heated moment politically and militarily. And we were there shuttling between two very big prominent actors. One is a prominent tribal leader and another who was the former governor of Yemen at that time. And shuttling between those actors, passing messages as per their request, was something that I felt made us slightly closer to pushing things in a way that avoids further escalation. I don't like the terminology of success story. I feel like it's so top down. So pushing things in the right direction is maybe my own way to be a bit more diplomatic and humble of what we're trying to do. And we shuttled between those two actors and we've been on literally front lines to cross from one area to another and swapping between the convoys because we normally go with guards with us, swapping guards from one side to the other to be able to pass those messages and cross between one tiny village to another tiny village within that governorate. I wouldn't say that we had a groundbreaking mediation process, but it certainly helped build the rapport between those two elements within that area. And it's something that I learned a lot from on a personal level. And it made me realize that, made me remember that there is value to what we're trying to do, despite the high risk element that comes with it.

I really like what you said about not liking success stories. You almost made me feel bad for asking you the question, actually. And I was reflecting on, yes, she's so right. It's because the problem with framing the question like that is that it puts us, the externals who come in, in the hero's role of fixing these things. And I think obviously the solutions, if they are to be durable, can somehow be massaged and facilitated from the outside, but they have to be from the country. It has to be negotiated by the Yemeni themselves.

I totally agree with you, Lars Peter. And I think it's a very self-centered framing because it's about making us feel, us who are in a position of power, we have the resources, we have the upper hand to say how things should be directed, feel better about our decisions and feel like they're actually worthy. I feel the same way. I feel perplexed about also the term beneficiary, especially in my field, because we work on political mediation. And you still have people running around calling people beneficiary. It just really pisses me off. And we really need a revolution in our lexicon.

Yeah, let's not use that word. And note to self, do not ask about success stories. So what's interesting about your story and your career trajectory is that before you worked with HD, you worked with another organization here in Geneva called the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, WILPF.

Is that right? Exactly, WILPF, yeah.

And you were the advocacy coordinator for the Middle East and North Africa there. Now, advocacy is something very different from what you have described so far, right? You talk about diplomacy. You obviously have to be very discreet. We just talked about taking yourself out of the equation and really backstage facilitating, but leaving the access to do the heavy lifting, in a sense. Advocacy is almost the exact opposite. It's about making noise. It's about advocating on behalf of the most vulnerable and so on. You must have had to pack away a good chunk of your professional experience and your personality getting into this scene.

Absolutely. To be honest, I don't think it really wasn't an easy decision for me to make that shift. But I've always been very passionate about political affairs. And I felt, after spending almost seven years at WILF, I felt that I wanted a shift that still safeguards my passion for political affairs in a way that I really enjoy as well. So political mediation was the answer for this phase of my career that I had. And I'd say the shift was also made me realize that at the end of the day, we're kind of working towards the same objective, either alleviating suffering or supporting and resolving conflicts one way or another. Using extremely different tools. So it's all about the tools. And obviously, there's a not negligible phase of adaptation as well. But what helped me is coming already with the mindset that I'm a bit over the period of my life where I wanted to make noise all the time or speak to the same people in a way that was entirely value based. Because when you're engaging in mediation, you have to come with a mindset where you're ready to engage in a dialogue with almost anybody. Advocacy is slightly, in my experience, was slightly different because you were selecting the people in positions of power to speak in order to try to strike certain goals, whether it's in the Human Rights Council, for example, or elsewhere. Because I worked in advocacy in that space. I wasn't working in advocacy at the local level where, for example, I had to influence the opinion of parliamentarians, for example. And I feel like that very concentrated and seasoned way of making my messages land while I was doing advocacy helped me a lot in engaging in mediation. So I learned so much from my time at WILPF while doing advocacy to do the work that I do in mediation without the external noise.

So Sarah, you're an Arab. You're from Lebanon. You're from the region. The Middle East is not top of the gender gap index. I think we can say there remains significant issues around equality between men and women. For you as an Arab woman, what's the agenda in terms of addressing this issue? Where are you?

I think, to me, it really pisses me off. And I'm sorry that I'm, you know, answering.

We can use bad words on this podcast.

Amazing. I like it. It really pisses me off when I feel so constantly that we're Arabs are always put in a box. Arabs are very diverse. We have different races. We have different religions.

We have different ethnicities. And we're so geographically dispersed as well. So being talked to as one being from a homogenous group is very unfair. It doesn't do justice to the diversity of the Arab identity. And what pisses me off even more is that even now in our century, with the level of education, the access to internet, you still have people that think Arabs, you know, right camels to go to bring food to the table, you know. So to me, it's really part of my identity also to reflect that diversity and carry this message in the spaces that I'm part of here in Geneva. I think a second thing I would say is because I come from a region where unfortunately a very big part of the conflicts are concentrated nowadays. One of my main missions is to clearly show very loudly that we're not mere informants to the global north. I'm not just a source of information. We're not just content to be discussed and experiences to be shared or victims to be highlighted. We are subjects. We have ownership of our own experience. We have ownership of our own narrative. And we do it in really diverse ways. And this is really one of the things that I hope I'll never lose one opportunity and keep pushing for.

Good. Good to hear you get a bit upset and use the shitty language.

That's fantastic.

So what I hear you saying is don't treat us as one block. We are actually people who are individuals, and we actually have opinion, and we want agency over our own lives, and we want to make our own decisions. All of which I fully understand. Now, what's beyond that? What's the agenda for you? I'm not asking for the whole Arab world. I'm asking Sarah, what's your agenda in terms of pushing forward on gender equality?

To me, it's in this sector particularly, and as an individual who is in that sector, it's very important to me to speak more about and push for decolonizing our sector. You still see, unfortunately, so many manifestations of colonization even now. And you see a lot of manifestations of classism as well. And you see, obviously, patriarchy is also at the heart of all of that. And I think patriarchy, colonization and classism are literally the recipe for disaster. And this is one of the things that I feel this combination is really at the root of almost everything that's wrong in our sector. And to me, I feel like it is a mission that I have, sometimes I'm not conscious of it, and sometimes I am, to deconstruct that and to raise awareness about that. Because to me, it's not enough for us to be aware of the problem, to be able to solve it. We also have to be committed to solving it. And this commitment comes in daily. You don't just take a break from this commitment to try to solve this issue. You can do it in many different ways. You can speak about it. You can highlight it. You can fight it back when it happens to you or to someone around you. You can write about it. You can walk the talk. And the way you operate as a professional, if you've got this mission, as I do, it's an ongoing commitment to an indefinite time. Maybe just to add one point, Lars-Peter, as well. I think we really have to think about, not just institutionally, but also as professionals who operate within the space, how to radically change things in a way that is in line with the reason why we're supposed to have entered the sector initially. You have this adrenaline rush, early 20s. You want to be in the sector. You want to change the world. I think it's important for us to reconnect to that feeling way beyond the pressure that we get from being within specific institutions, the pressure of bureaucracy, the results frameworks, the reports, et cetera. We have to reconnect with that. And for us to walk the talk, it's important for us to think radically about certain issues, especially when we're working in conflict settings and we're working with people who are affected by conflict. And I think the term radical is one of my favorite terms as well. It does have sometimes a negative connotation, but I think it does have a negative connotation for people who are in positions of privilege and it makes them feel comfortable. But in and of itself, I think it's revolutionary to think radically about things, about changing things, about shifting resources to the right spaces, about shifting the power to make decisions to the right people. And I think one sentence that resonates with me quite a lot is when we're not hungry for justice, it's usually because we're too full of privilege. And I think we have to exercise every day to change that.

Sarah, it's been a real pleasure to have you on Trumanitarian. And I can't think of a better note to end this wonderful conversation on. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your work. And I can't wait to see where you go next.

Thank you, Lars Peter.