The Global Executive Leadership Initiative (GELI) is a new flagship initiative from the UN to promote leadership throughout the development and humanitarian sector. GELI is led by Assistant Secretary General Panos Moumtzis who in this weeks episode together with Lars Peter Nissen discusses the challenges of leadership, how being a leader at times can be a very lonely, and how GELI seeks to strengthen leadership.
You can read more about GELI on their website www.geli.org and their twitter handle is @the_geli.
Transcript
This week we speak to Panos Moumtzis, the ASG, Assistant Secretary General, of the UN, in charge of a new initiative called the Global Executive Leadership Initiative, GELI. The conversation is interesting because leadership is such a crucial issue and one that we do not always spend a lot of time on. As a community, we are happy spending weeks, months and sometimes even years negotiating policy frameworks for inter-agency collaboration, but we lack a strong focus on equipping the leaders throughout the system with the tools and the mindset to make things work. We have all experienced operations where a handful of outstanding individuals have made all of the difference and the opposite is also true, sometimes one or a couple of spoilers seem to be able to obstruct even the simplest, most obvious, no-brain initiatives. The question we need to ask ourselves is where do those outstanding individuals come from? How do we grow them? How do we make sure they fall into the right position? And how do we make it as likely as possible that they make the right decision when they get into a really difficult situation? Those and many more issues are what I talked to Panos about in this episode. It's a really interesting conversation. GELI is fresh off the block, It's just started last week, and it is really interesting. I look forward to seeing it develop and hopefully succeed over the coming years. Enjoy the conversation.
Panos Moumtzis, welcome to Trumanitarian.
Panos Moumtzis:Thank you. Thank you for welcoming me. I'm delighted to be here with you.
Lars Peter Nissen:Yeah, so we were very happy you could find time to do this. You are the Assistant Secretary General in charge of something called the GELI, the Global Executive Leadership Initiative, and we look forward to hearing a lot about that, but first, it would be great to hear a bit about your history, your experience. What have you done in the humanitarian sector?
Panos Moumtzis:Well, I consider myself a humanitarian practitioner, I've spent the majority of my 30-plus years career in operations in the field. I really consider myself extremely lucky to have worked in this field and have the privilege to be part of the humanitarian family. So I've worked... started back in the 199o-91, from Gaza, northern Iraq, the Kurdish crisis and Somalia crisis 92-94, sadly, the Rwanda genocide, 94 in the DRC, and then moved to a number of other positions, both in Africa and in the Middle East. The first 20 years of my work was primarily with the UNHCR, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, having started with Amnesty International before that on human rights, and I would say that human rights assignment and set the mindset for me for the entire career in terms of where I've gone, including my most recent assignment in Syria, as regional humanitarian coordinator for the Syria crisis, one of those most complex and really challenging jobs, I would say I've ever done. I had the pleasure also to move across the system a little bit, working with, with UNRWA, dealing with Palestine Refugees, and now my function, first of all as a humanitarian coordinator, really looking more at the system where I've always said, I've considered myself 50 UN... 50% UN and 50% NGOs, really bringing the family of all of us working together on it. And a year ago, I was asked to help set up this new project, the GELI, the Global Executive Leadership Initiative, a project that looks into the... supporting leadership: training, strengthening capacity building, both for the individual and the the collaborative leadership team level in the field.
Lars Peter Nissen:And you are an ASG, an Assistant Secretary General. That's a big deal.
Panos Moumtzis:Well, it's part of my title, but most of the days I don't think about it. Of course, I'm honored that this is what is offered to me. I report to the Emergency Relief Coordinator. In fact, I report to a board, an advisory board that provides a strategic direction for the project I'm working with. And that board includes both UN, NGOs, including private sector and donors that kind of help us in terms of the strategic direction in terms of where we're going.
Lars Peter Nissen:But it would be fair to say that the fact that this is led by an ASG is a sign that the system, the UN, is really taking leadership very seriously... something it wants to focus on, it's something he wants to push forward.
Panos Moumtzis:Absolutely. I think that leadership is recognized as really a very important part of our work and what we're doing. There is... the project is in an effort to further professionalize, further invest, on leadership and I think having an assignment of the top level, made by the Secretary General within the system, but also there was a recognition that this will be is a project that is also an independent voice and an independent project into stuff that we're doing. So I'm delighted and privileged to be in this position, but also, after a long time in the field of many, many operations and leadership positions, it's a privilege to have the time to sit back and reflect but also give back to the current generation of leaders and emerging leaders, as we are looking across the system.
Lars Peter Nissen:And how did GELI come about was it? Do you wake up one day and get this great idea? Did somebody... What's the origin story of GELI?
Panos Moumtzis:There's a number of factors, I mean, my personal path, I would say, two jobs back, I was working... I was the founding director for the Peer-2-Peer team, looking at... at the time it was the transformative agenda and how to best support it in the field. And during the four years I was there, I like 24 country missions of real time review, and what was obvious that is while we look at kind of operational efficiency, speed, scale, the underlying question in all these teams and countries was the role of leadership and how wonderful is it when that leader, she or he, carries the responsibility beautifully, and what a disaster is for themselves and for the teams where this is not the case. So it became obvious that leadership was really an important part. We're also fortunate to have a donor, the US government, USAID who really took this idea and kind of fostered it and created it, leading us to where we are today.
Lars Peter Nissen:And so this is really interesting, because I think for those of us who follow Peer-2-Peer when it started, and... it was clear that it was successful in really building some kind of acceptance at the field level of there being an inside outside eye, if you want, or some kind of external, to the country, team coming in and helping facilitate processes. And it's really interesting to hear you say that basically, after all these country missions, and all this learning, what you come up with is, you can have the best process in the world, but if you don't have the right person with the right mindset, that actually doesn't matter. Is it really that... it is a necessary condition to have the leadership on the ground to make operations happen. Is that a fair recap?
Panos Moumtzis:Oh, absolutely. I think the leadership is making or breaking in every operation. We saw it even more now within the COVID pandemic. Leadership at all levels, the leadership at the political level... of course, we're looking specifically at the humanitarian development sector. One of the innovations that GELI is bringing is we strongly believe that when we talk about leadership, we need to have the totality of the family in the room in the cohort or in the discussion. So we are breaking silos in terms of leadership development programs by having United Nations, NGOs, ICRC, the Federation, the humanitarian family together, there's lots of leadership programs that often is UNHCR to their own staff or NGOs, vice versa. We believe that there has to be that there's a richness in doing that. And for me, the journey for Peer-2-Peer was also about that. It was really the bluntness the straightforwardness of a discussion or review, to really put the finger on the pulse and to go all the way to the bone in terms of what is it that needs to be done differently to be more efficient, more effective, to get better results. Bottom line is to always have the people we help in the center of our heart and our mind. Sometimes we'll get carried away by our systems, our bureaucracies, our approaches, and really that keeping the people in mind and then the with GELI it's the investment on the leadership to be able to have the tools, the mindset, for individuals, for teams to reach their maximum potential.
Lars Peter Nissen:What does that concretely look like? What are your workstreams as GELI? What do you do?
Panos Moumtzis:So we have... it's a brand new program. Actually, we've just launched it last week. So we're really delighted for that. We have three streams. So we have a 12 month Executive Leadership Program for a cohort of 25 colleagues, all of them leaders, at the moment, in leadership positions for UN agencies, NGOs, ICRC, the Federation. Out of the current cohort of 25, we have colleagues coming from 21 countries around the world. So that journey of 12 months looks into individual leadership, looks into collaborative leadership, looks into transformational leadership, everybody's offered an executive coach, and some, I would say of them, really cutting edge, in terms of leadership thinking tools that exist in the world right now. We have a an approach of the 80-20 philosophy, which means that 20% is, if you want, academic or theoretical concepts, 80% is applicable, which means that if I'm going through this course, and I'm discussing on the topic, the whole design of it is, what do I take for me back to my own job, to my own context, hopefully, to have... to be a better leader with what I'm doing. So it's we place a huge emphasis on the practical applicable knowledge and how to take it down to operations. Then we have a second stream, which is short term trainings...
Lars Peter Nissen:Can I just ask, How do you pick the 25?
Panos Moumtzis:Oh, this was a... The 25, because this was the pilot, we asked the NGOs, UN agencies, Red Cross family to nominate colleagues. Now, in 23, we plan to do another round of this 12 month program, and we plan to open it totally to applicants, people come forward to apply for this position as they go through it. Yeah.
Then we have the second pillar of GELI which looks into short term courses. Many colleagues said that 12 month is wonderful, but really, with our work commitments, is there anything shorter? So we have two courses under this short term, field-based offered trainings. One is on negotiation skills, so the art of negotiations, mediation, conflict resolution, which is exclusively designed for senior level leaders, again, UN, NGO family. And this is a six week course which is blended, which means five weeks online and then three days face to face at regional hubs. So we're doing one in Nairobi, one in Dakar, Panama City, Amman and Bangkok. So one is on negotiation skills, and then a second training, which we're starting next year, is going to be looking into strategic communications, influencing skills for senior leaders. Again, we all have done in the past, you know, the how to do a BBC interview story, the world has changed with social media, but also is this strategic balancing act of what is the best way to reach my advocacy goal, or whatever is my goal with governments, non-government, others to be able to reach it. So that's the strategic communications.
And then lastly, under pillar three, we are looking into questions of system leadership and innovation. We're actually fortunate to work with the UN Secretary General's office this year in New York, into what is called the SDG Lab, which looks into, basically, how we collaborate as individuals, within a team, and also within a system, where we often come with wonderful mandates, but sometimes become in the way as well and how we bring it all together. And lastly, we want to attach to it a leadership innovation lab. A safe space for leaders, again, across the system and across the silos, the pillars, to tackle an issue and reflect freely, How how can you innovate? How can we do the same thing better? We have a constant sense that the world is moving so fast, the world is moving much faster than us as humanitarians. I would say we all feel very proud in a way we respond very fast on crisis, we really we move; however, we do not respond fast enough on our own internal criticism what we need to do. And that's, in a way, that space we want to create.
Lars Peter Nissen:I fully agree agility is there when it comes to actually getting out to the earthquake, but agility is not there when it comes to transforming our system, our ways of working, and the whole institutional framework, the humanitarian architecture, if you want. I think that is abundantly clear to all of us after several big reform efforts over the past 15-20 years. And and what I really find interesting about GELI is that it picks a different focus. It's exactly not about structures and protocols and mandates and who's allowed to do what and who's not allowed to do what, it is, how do you as an individual use the platform you have been given, how to interpret your mandate and the responsibility you have to make a difference. That's interesting.
Panos Moumtzis:This is important because we live in a system that one could be all consumed about the processes on how to go about it. And I think one, keeping the focus on the people and what does it mean for the people, and then the GELI investment is really investing on leadership development on senior leaders within our system. And I think this is something that we don't do enough. If you look at 2O21, we had a $36 billion annual humanitarian plan in place, yet the delivery of it depends on the effective leadership approach at the top level, of course, and at the operational level, to be able to bring it all together. The private sector invest significantly on leadership, and they started much earlier. And the space we also occupy as GELI is the collaborative leadership with between teams. So it's not about the wonderful leadership programs that many of the UN agencies and NGOs have. We look at the space of how do we come together to bring results, which is critical in every operation.
Lars Peter Nissen:So I agree, it's critical. And but a question I have on my mind is, it's clearly not a level playing field, right? We are a sector dominated by a few big agencies. If you look at the percentage of money going through the three big operational UN agencies, it's more than 50%, it's probably even more than that, I can't remember actually, to be totally honest. If you look within the NGO sector, it's dominated by a couple of handful of really big and powerful agencies with big turnover. And we have a conversation about localization about decolonization at times. I mean, aren't you just reproducing the existing power structure within the system? You're training the leaders of the incumbents to be even better leaders for their organizations?
Panos Moumtzis:It's a very good question, actually, you're asking, a very challenging one. I think we're creating... providing a free thinking space. We don't have any particular agenda or mandate or really... but that's where the independence of the project is so vital. It's a space for the system, for members of the system to come together. First of all, to find out how to best excel, How can I do better as an individual? We place a huge emphasis on collaborative leadership, I think we have moved away from the heroic leadership, we're moving a lot into a system where we need to be able to work together, but also we need to be able to work together in a way that decisions are made efficiencies done. It's not about the machinery being together, but about being fast and sharp and thoughtful in terms of how we carry ourselves and how we bring it in place. All the issues you have mentioned mentioned are issues of our time so GELI doesn't focus on any one in particular. We really look very specifically into how to make an impact and the best difference in the world. Another angle that we bring is the private sector and we want to bring to mix a lot more the... some of the best practices, so thinking, [inaudible] some of our speakers, some of the approaches, the private sector has invested for longer, and much more than us, on leadership development. It's fairly acceptable in the private sector, that you may have a coach, you may have somebody you know, you're... there is a learning journey that you go through it. In our sector, I mean, I'll just... maybe I'll talk about myself... I was fortunate to have the path I had but a lot of it I learned it through trial and error, falling on my face, making the mistakes. And I think, of course, this will still continue happening but every tool, every support that we can provide to our leaders in our sector... we don't talk much about, we don't write much about, leadership analysis development in our humanitarian sector, yet billions of dollars go through our operations to help. And it is not just about the money. It's about, of course, the impact on people's lives that depend on a timely decision and any delay cost lives in terms of what would happen.
Lars Peter Nissen:I couldn't agree more. Right. And I think there's a massive return on investment in terms of developing better leaders and putting them in the right place. So I do believe that GELI could be truly transformational if you're successful.
Panos Moumtzis:We hope so. That's our our goal really to be able to influence both the mindset and have a bigger impact within the sector itself.
Lars Peter Nissen:But what's your theory of change? How would you how would you describe that? How are you going to achieve that transformation?
Panos Moumtzis:So the transformation needs to take place at a couple of levels. The first one is at the individual level. And I think that, if you want, looking at the mirror, and that's the tools that are provided to be able to help individual leaders. We're also looking at collaborative leadership and the system. System leadership, system change is really an important part of what we do. Because you cannot look at the leaders in vacuum of the broader ecosystem that we're all part of it and that influences significantly the mandates, the social, the political context, the various pressures we're under in terms of where we are. So we basically, by working with individuals, working with the system, with a collaborative, with the teams, we want to be able to bring a transformation and an impact to provide some original thinking, some innovation (in leadership innovation, we're not talking about... ) and a change in the sector, on the way we move forward and also to build the next... the current and the next level of cadre of leaders to invest in it so that if somebody has gone through the program, we want it to be recognized as a as a sign of excellence or an investment to be the best leader one can in whatever position one is.
Lars Peter Nissen:When I think back at the times where I've been in the most trouble with my hierarchy, wherever I worked, it's been when I said no to money, right? So if somebody flew me half across the world to get an ECHO contract and I basically said, "No, I don't think you can get this one because there's no capacity to actually implement it so no, I'm not going to write this for you", then I got in real trouble. Now, those incentives, they are a big part of the problem we have in the sector, right? And so, how do you address that? Do you go into... How do you think of poor little me sitting there in a country being hammered by my my boss at home for not getting the turnover up? How are you going to help me GELI?
Panos Moumtzis:So I think, with GELI, I would say "values" is again at the core of leadership. We cannot, in the humanitarian development sector, talk about leadership without looking at everything alive through the core question of values. Is this in line with the values of our organization, of our team, of our sector? In today's world, with so many issues out there, I would say the... our core values is what really keeps us on the core of where we are. So many of our leaders, many of us, have been in situations where we had to make this difficult call, we had to make this difficult decision. That is never easy. It's that judgment call that comes in our mind to say, you know, am I going to be an opportunist, am I going to be... or am I going to do the right thing? And that doing the right thing, it might sound very simple, but I... it's never that easy. But it's important for each leader to be connected, I would say with our core values and ourselves. And for me, it has always been the guiding principle to which way we're going to go. And maybe I'll refer the my last assignment in Syria where it was very difficult (it's still difficult, for many of our leaders who work today in Afghanistan or in Yemen, in many of these difficult places) to be guided by these core values, to stay true to them, of course, to do the right thing in terms of moving forward. Otherwise, we are not the humanitarian sector. I think this, for me, is very core to who we are.
Lars Peter Nissen:I really agree with that. I also think we have values as a community. But we also have corporate cultures that sometimes run contrary to that. And so, as you describe, we have we have a very difficult job. And we have to make very difficult priorities wherever we go. How... What's the bottleneck, do you think? What is it we need to unstick to get more principled outcomes out of these very difficult situations?
Panos Moumtzis:Well, I think... a couple of reflections: One is we have become a lot, if I can put it very simply, technically driven. So it's good that we have establish the, you know, the standards and you know, quantifiable, measurable, and so on, but the strategic direction cannot be done by this technical consideration. So the role of leadership in a country, in a humanitarian country team or in a in a deep field, sub office, wherever that is, is really important to make sure that the they have a clarity in terms of the strategic direction, there's a clarity in terms of the priorities, we can never do it also, what are the first things we're going to put in place to bring it in the place to the way we've moved? We live in a world where hugely interconnected, yet I find that on leadership positions, it still remains a lonely place. There is very little interchange in between senior leaders to be able to pick up for the phone and say, Hey, John, hey, Mary, I'm struggling with this issue. It doesn't happen. So I think that also exchange among leaders, that would be good too, and we hope with that safe space, to be able to provide a platform where leaders could do. Because in many places, we don't need to reinvent the wheel. I mean, some of the same issues are happening again and again. And then there are some situations where what we see is the issue that we see in one or two or three countries actually is not a one country issue, it's a it's a policy issue. It's a broader system issue. And I think we hope to be able also to influence, and have at the table, the policymakers of whatever the specific issue is, the key holders of the issue, if you want, on the table, around the table, to discuss and think what needs to be done. So we hope to be able to create an impact on individuals, and on the system, most importantly, to be able to have an impact on these very people that we're trying to help.
Lars Peter Nissen:So in a sense, you're trying to build sort of a network and social capital, a trust, across many different organization hoping that that will transform the interaction between the organizations, but not so much tackle the the fact that there is competition between the different players, I mean, you don't go into that whole institutional game.
Panos Moumtzis:No, I mean, the network is really important. And the network that goes across silos, if you want, this really network of Un, NGOs and Red Cross family together. In fact, one of the things we're creating is an alumni... GELI alumni network of colleagues who would have gone through that to then become a source for connectivity, for exchange, for inspiration, for discussion, on issues that they're taking place. I think competition is healthy. I mean, it's good to have the competition, because bottom line is everybody tries to do their very best with whatever they're doing. I think when... but this network, the GELI network, we're building is really building bridges, on... across organizations across silos, across the humanitarian development as well, in a way that I don't think we have had so far.
Lars Peter Nissen:I think I agree with that and I think these things can be very powerful. But but just to pick up on the competition, I... So I agree, competition is healthy, unless you have sort of near monopoly status, right? I mean, and that is a bit... it's not a level playing field. And there are some really, really powerful agencies. I could, for example, ask, you know, all of these big agencies have their own leadership programs. How do you relate to that?
Panos Moumtzis:Well, I mean, also to be realistic and pragmatic, GELI is not going to re-organize the whole architecture of the system, you know, the system is there, what we're trying to find is, how to find the leverages, the handles, the issues, that could enhance, improve the thinking and, you know, the oil delivery, in terms of what we do. Now, these organizations have their own, yes, they have their own leadership questions. I think this is up to them and their board to see how to resolve it. But I've been actually... we've just started this program and I've been really delighted to hear the reactions from several organizations that came and said, Wow, can you come to actually target a specific group or a specific number of senior leaders to do more of what you're doing, but looking at ourselves. So at the moment, we're really at the beginning of a journey, we will look at leadership as a long term plan, it's not a 12 month, we have a five year plan put in place. And I'm delighted that we increasingly have more and more governments... Funding, is not the funding is not the partnering, is really more joining this mindset approach and investment on leadership, because bottom line is taxpayers are paying millions of dollars so the efficient use of these resources requires an investment on leadership and a recognition that you need to invest in leadership and start early enough within our sector. Also, the partnership with both the private sector and the foundations. For me, it's heartwarming is I'm delighted to see how many of them have come forward showing, expressing interest in what we're doing. And of course, wanting to collaborate and to join... donors join our board, which gives them an also an opportunity to support the strategic direction as we're going.
Lars Peter Nissen:So you speak about the link between investing in leadership and efficiency, better outcomes, these things. Obviously, the host government or the government in the country with crisis is happening over the work is going on is a very important piece of that puzzle. Do you also target senior leadership from government ministries, local governments?
Panos Moumtzis:We at the moment our focus is entirely, 100%, on leadership within the humanitarian development sector, with the UN, NGOs and the Red Cross family. This is a completely different space. And no, we don't have any government of host governments, or any governments, I would say, as part of the leadership program.
Lars Peter Nissen:To what extent would you say that you contribute towards localization but with this program?
Panos Moumtzis:Localization is an important question. And of course, I can give you lots of stories of the difference I've seen when we use rightly the local capacity, strengths and abilities to do there. So we include local NGOs, local actors in the training programs we have, we we include them, I would say, in the same proportionality as our members of the teams on the ground. So we welcome them as they go. GELI is not a... the localization project, you know, but we look at the leadership within our sector and important partner actor is indeed local actors that are part of the programs we offer.
Lars Peter Nissen:You're just out of your first training workshop, I believe I saw that on social media. What's your big takeaway from that? And who was there? What happened? What surprised you? What was...?
Panos Moumtzis:Oh, it was... I was thrilled to be part of that. So we had 25 colleagues, about 10 UN, 10 NGOs, and the rest were Red Cross... Red Cross ICRC family. It was highly participatory. I think we tried... our goal and our vision was to create a unique program, a program that nobody else has at the moment. And that Executive Leadership Program (really, we've only done the first residency, we have two more to go)... but it was... I was delighted to see the reaction from the participants because it really shook everybody to get out of their comfort zone, to look at themselves with a mirror, to look at how they collaborate together, lots of new concepts and approaches were put on the table in terms of system thinking in terms of soul searching, looking at ourselves, looking at our mindset, the peer coaching that we're offering, you know... we were always ready to offer everybody advice and questions. We don't ask enough questions when we work, both within our teams and within our staff. So the feedback we got was really quite inspirational and encouraging from the first cohort. We also have now the intersession, between the first and the second residency, which is in six months in Berlin, there'll be weekly podcasts, webinars, interesting articles in this program, we have partnered with Harvard University, the Harvard Humanitarian Initiative that brings together many parts of Harvard, but also voices and leadership schools of thought, if you want, from the south as well. I don't think there is one model that fits it all. That diversity of views, diversity of approaches, is extremely important. And now we're looking forward to the second cohort, which will be looking into collaborative leadership and how we come together in team negotiation skills. Empathy, for example, leading with empathy was was was part of what were there?
Lars Peter Nissen:What was the biggest surprise to you? What hadn't you seen before you went into this course?
Panos Moumtzis:I would say, when designing the program, and it took us a year or so (With COVID it took us longer. Some of my colleagues have been working much longer than that.), there were so many aspects of the leadership experience and cycle that I hadn't thought that actually this is a whole school of thought and field that there's so much you can do to be more self-aware, to carry yourself in the best possible way. So for me, it was a significant discovery in terms of what is being offered to them. I was so pleased to see the very active participation and engagement of the colleagues. They already formed teams. There is the Nomads team, the Stars of Africa team, the Leaders team, the.. and that togetherness... they're already all in WhatsApp now and changing [inaudible]. So that is really, kind of, certification of why we're doing it--a validation of where we're moving. And it's the beginning of a journey. Of course, they also came up with several suggestions on what not to do or how to improve it. And I think its also that the pedagogical system we're trying to use is highly participatory, highly experimental. For us, it was 25 wonderful leaders in the room, each of them with a lot of stories and experience and that in itself is a tremendous richness, of course, facilitated by exceptional incredible leaders, faculty, that... (we'll also bring the private sector, we'll bring others as we come in) to expose the mind and to challenge the mind on new ideas and new concepts and to bring the best out of everybody to reach their maximum potential. I think that's the goal with we've set up.
Lars Peter Nissen:You're making me very envious, actually, that I wasn't there. It sounds like you really managed to create this... And I experienced that sometimes when you do a training course, especially on leadership, where you suddenly have that space to think, and people around you who you can be free with to discuss the difficult things you do. That's a very powerful experience and the way you describe this and the enthusiasm in your words sort of indicates to me that that that's the sort of experience you had.
Panos Moumtzis:Absolutely. Also, I mean, it was both inspirational or an exciting moment, but it was also there were difficult moments in it as well, because we live in a sector that there's very little blunt feedback in a constructive, forward-looking way to be able to look at your mirror and say, How am I perceived? How am I seen? What do I need to do to have a better presence as a leader? We've gone beyond the time of the one person leader, we're looking really into leadership that you could lead from wherever you're sitting. Leadership is really to exercise the best within your team to make to do the best they can do in terms of what they're doing or what they're working on. So I think there were lots of inspirational concepts, but also tools and specific elements that I hope the cohort that went to the first residency went back, and will be working for the next... I mean, it's a one year program in which we'll... By the way we want to... In 2O23 our plan is to run two cohorts a year have 30 participants to get a wider number of course of colleagues, always the same concept un NGOs, and the Red Cross family coming together on these discussions.
Lars Peter Nissen:Maybe I will get in trouble for saying this, but one one reflections have sometimes had when I move around, sort of, UN circles, it's that, almost the higher up the system you come, the more vulnerable people seem to feel and the more they complain about how constrained they are. It's just a reflection that I've had sometimes. And I am sure it is really tough to operate at senior levels, and I'm very cognizant that I haven't done that myself. But do you think that's a part of the puzzle? That people actually feel incredibly vulnerable when they're in these positions, in spite of the fact that actually you guys have the power, you guys are the bosses?
Panos Moumtzis:Well, a couple of reflections. First of all, I mean, many colleagues, all of us, we move up the system, we may have started with a technical knowledge and area, one may be an engineer or a nurse or a teacher, or... then eventually over the years one finds themselves in a leadership role. And that's a completely different job. It's really... It's the importance of having this strong ability of sensing, sensing towards yourself, towards a team, and to lead the team in a way that they will bring the best results in the way forward. So I think that's where this leadership investment is important because it gives that platform to think, to reflect, and to take it and apply it in one own's situation where it is. I'm happy that we are now becoming more and more open as a sector in terms of coaching--to provide leadership coaching, which I remember, five years ago was in a meeting and they brought in five coaches at the humanitarian coordinators coordinators retreat. And the question is, Oh Please talk to them. And poor coaches at lunchtime. Nobody wanted to go near them because I think there was a little bit more of... almost a stigma, you know. You must be underperforming to go on a call together.or if I'm sent to a leadership program, it must be because there is a problem that I'm saying, Oh, this program, I think we want to change the culture of that because it's really, it's an area that you need to invest.. to you it's... it's all being offered tools that would help one first to self-manage oneself, to self manage your mind... our mindset that often better understand our brain and how we operate, to better understand how we collaborate to better understand how to juggle within the system that has its challenges, it has a shortcoming. So the question is how to navigate through all of that, once you are in the leadership position, to to bring the best in yourself and on the team in terms of where you want to be going.
Lars Peter Nissen:You describe this as the as the beginning of a journey. We're now starting on a five year journey for GELI. Where are we going to be in five years? How will the world changed because of your work?
Panos Moumtzis:Well, we that's an important question. So we want to be able, in five years time, to be able, first of all to created a network of leaders that have gone, or are currently, or have gone through, leadership positions that make decisions that're more impactful for the effected people. I always come back to the fact that people, whether refugees or IDPs in humanitarian development. Our clients, the very people that there is on... they are the very people that we wake up every day and go to work to better serve. So in five years time, we want to be able to have a more acute awareness in terms of leadership skills in leadership development to have built a capacity of the next generation of leaders as they coming up, and to have done it equally for NGOs, UN and Red Cross together, in the same room, to create more bridges that we we hope this alumni network, this friendships, that will be created, will be impactful in the years and the jobs that they do wherever they are.
Lars Peter Nissen:How do you measure that? It's pretty hard to cramp into a log frame.
Panos Moumtzis:It's not the... what you call... the numbers measurement. It's not the number of days or hours or participants, the impact has to be on impact on operations on the very people that were working. So we have a very robust M&E program in each of the three pillars I described, and overall, on the program. That's the question I get from our donors: What... How do you measure the impact? How do we know that this is not yet another training program that people go for three days? And that's what we have avoided from the beginning; this is a unique program, an exceptional, where we set the bar extremely high, both in terms of quality, in terms of impact, in terms of practicability, but also relevance to our sector, we haven't taken... none of the trainings we have is off the shelf. So all of them were custom made, tailor made, to our own context in scenarios in practical applicability to make a difference on the on the people that we serve. And that's really the goal we have.
Lars Peter Nissen:And so you M&E framework is very qualitative and focus you do case studies? That sort of thing? Is that how you...
Panos Moumtzis:Both qualitative and quantitative. We have both of them to be able to... So there's a lot of, you know, discussions to be able to take, that... to be able to say, that's the impact that happened in X country on X operation. And, of course, it's a very difficult, because it's often is multiple reasons that come into, is not the only one, but we're really focusing on to be able to measure it, both quantitative and qualitative, for what difference it made.
Lars Peter Nissen:And I'm asking because it's here at ACAPS that that has been really difficult. For two reasons. I think, one, what we do sort of successes to the agency of others, I think it's the same for you, right, so that the outcome is really by influencing others.
Panos Moumtzis:It is indeed, but that influencing is so vital to do it right.
Lars Peter Nissen:I fully agree, it's also extremely difficult to measure. I think that that's the one challenge for me in terms of attributing or identifying whether something has been a success. And secondly, the difficulty we have found is that it really has been a journey for us as well in terms of changing as we went along. And to define a M&E or MEAL framework that is flexible enough to actually accommodate the organization changing as the learning is implemented. Those have, for us, been difficulties in really measuring impact and being able to document how we have made it
Panos Moumtzis:No, I relate to that. And that's something we spent a lot of time discussing certainly how to best do, to be able to measure the impact. We think this first of all, we would like to have that handful of people that go through a training and to be able, over the years, to create a critical mass that really is able to perform at the highest level for themselves in terms of discharging their responsibility in the leadership position where they are. We are at the beginning of the journey. So we're also (I have to be very clear) we're piloting this. So which means that as we go through, there will be changes, improvements to try to make it as applicable, as relevant, as impactful as we go. And after every pilot, and there will... there is a time of built in to review and to go back to the drawing board to see what do we need to do to do things better... We're also are getting a lot of requests from leaders with colleagues who say how about this aspect? How... So at the moment, we want, first of all, with these three pillars, to solidify and do really well, in terms of what we're doing. We will be taking more things as we're going through. We also believe on the importance of, particularly for senior leaders, of the face to face. And that was part of the challenge with COVID where some of the programs are hybrid, but they all have an element of face to face. Because you need that intimacy, you need that directness, to be able to open one's soul, one's heart and mind in terms of what we're doing.
Lars Peter Nissen:Maybe a final question for you. What's your advice to all of the fantastic humanitarian leaders who will not have the opportunity to go on the GELI program? What's your piece of advice for them?
Panos Moumtzis:Well, I mean, first of all, there is other programs, agencies, NGOs, you know, I mean, we will not be able to offer it to all, for clear so it's a small number that will go through it. I think it's good to always search--to search in oneself. So search... find... there is a lot more things that are online that are available to find ways to self improve. Coaching is also available in our network. I myself have become a coach. I'm a member of the humanitarian coaching network which is offers coaching for free to our... So there is... There are tools that are available, it's a question of just finding them and being able to go out to them. But I think having that self-awareness, self-searching, and finding always ways to improve, ask questions to your teams, how you're seeing, ask for feedback as you go through, empower your team to be able to reach their potential and to be able to maximize the impact they have. I think it's a privilege to be working in the humanitarian sector. It has been an incredible joy for me and I'm sure for all of us to do a job that gives us a purpose, a focus, and a satisfaction that no other job in the world would give us that. Yet, is how we discharge his privilege in the best possible way to serve. And that is where there is a question of self-questioning and self-reflecting to do it in the best possible way for whatever seats were sitting
Lars Peter Nissen:Panos Moumtzis, thank you so much for coming on Trumanitarian. Thank you for the leadership you're showing within the sector. All the best of luck with GELI, I think it's very exciting, and I look forward to following it in the years to come.
Panos Moumtzis:Well, thank you, thank you to Trumanitarian. It is my privilege to have been here with you and to have this really stimulating, interesting conversation. And yeah, looking forward to seeing our colleagues and hopefully the programs go stronger and stronger as we go. Thank you very much.