48. Dancer on the Hill

Paula Gil Baizan: 00:12

My name is Paula Gil Baizan and today Lars Peter has kindly lent me the microphones of humanitarian to do a special episode on change. You could say change is my thing. I'm interested in studying it, experiencing it, creating it. I feel really passionate about the need for transformation in the humanitarian sector and understanding the mechanics behind change occupies a really big part of my life. A few months ago, after years of very tough negotiations, a workable solution was found for cash coordination. This is a huge achievement and the story behind it is really worth telling. The story behind these changes also part of my own personal story. So today I have invited three friends who played a key role in this process to tell us their own stories of change. Isabelle Pelley, Juliet Lang, and Sophie Tholstrup are three women with stellar careers in the sector. Today, you'll hear many stories from them and hopefully, you'll get an insight into how a close knit group of women have worked together throughout decades with grit and persistence. Before we start, I want you to know that we recorded this podcast from many, many different places in the world so the sound quality might not be great at times, and we apologise for it. Change can be painful for the people who fight for it in the arena. We hope you find inspiration in this candid conversation amongst friends.

Paula Gil Baizan: 01:40

So Isabel, Sophie, Juliet, welcome to Trumanitarian. It is a pleasure to have you here today.

Sophie Tholstrup: 01:48

Thank you.

Juliet Lang: 01:49

Thanks a million.

Paula Gil Baizan: 01:50

I have basically created this podcast for my own entertainment because I have organised it to be like my most amazing and favourite dinner party ever. And I invited you all here because you're all my friends and I have been trying to work with change, work for change. And I find it really exhausting. And I'm at a period in my life right now where I'm trying to figure out, should I really be doing this? Or should I just be going off and opening a restaurant somewhere. And in one way or another change has been a theme in all of your careers. And I think that's why I invited you here. And that's something I admire a lot about what you guys have done. So I want to ask a small question. What have you learned about change and how it happens in the humanitarian sector? Ladies, give me your I like your your top two learnings from those experiences because you've done changes of all sizes: small ones from like, Hey, guys, would you like to try doing some cash to like some really humongous ones like, Hey, guys coordinate [inaudible] to how to do cash, and everything in between? So what have you learned in that journey, give me a heads up to please.

Isabelle Pelly: 03:12

I'm happy to get us started. And wish this didn't happen to us in person. That's what I can say. I think that, first of all changes is it's a long game. And the goalposts are always changing. And that's maybe what makes it exciting, but it's exhausting, but it also makes it exciting. So what I would say is, we need to not not lose interest, and also not rest on your laurels. Because I think if I've learned anything is that change is reversible, with what we're seeing with abortion in the US women's rights in Afghanistan, or a little bit closer to our sphere of influence, maybe progress on cash transfers in the context of the current food crisis and macro economic volatility. We need to ensure that we that we don't backtrack, and actually that we continue to innovate on an ongoing basis. And something else that I learned and actually, partly through working with you Paula, is that evidence matters, in fact, a lot less than we'd like in driving change. It's important, but it's the political nature of decision making that really drives commitments. And you would challenge me when we work together at CALP and saying, Why are we doing research on X, Y or Zed at this particular moment, you know? What, who, are we trying to influence? And let's think about that from the outset. And that's definitely something that I've built into my work since. And so yeah, just based on that, it's really important to understand the political, the political economy, the incentives, the risks, and also not just who's going to win from change, but crucially, who's going to lose and, you know, massage that relationship accordingly. What do you guys think?

Paula Gil Baizan: 04:50

Yeah, that's so interesting, because I think at the end of the day change is about people. And if you forget the people, then there is no way to drive change.

Juliet Lang: 04:59

Yeah, I agree with that. And I think if there was a lesson or what I've learned from it, it is about that it's about finding what makes people tick, and how the change matters to them. I think that that was the big lesson. And I think Isabelle is right, you have to have huge amounts of persistence to stick with change. And there may be small increments. But it's finding that little chink, that little kind of thing to hook on to that you can kind of progress and move forward. And I studied sociology when I was in college and there was this really interesting video someone showed us one time of this guy. And he was at a music festival, and he was doing this kind of wild and like, wacky dance, and everybody was kind of laughing at him sitting on the hillside, and he was roly poly, and like tumbling up and down. But one by one, people started to get up and join him and suddenly became a movement. And there was like 200, 250 people suddenly, like rolie polie, wacky dancing on this hill. And the question was, how did change happen? Like, what was the what was the incentive? Why did it suddenly come from like one guy standing on a hill like dancing to suddenly a movement? And the answer was not the guy walking in and kind of dancing on the hill. And maybe that's to Isabelle's point about evidence: It's not just the fact that he happens to be doing a great dance and the dance makes sense and the music is good. It was actually the second person, it was the first person who stood up after him and started dancing. And that was the real change maker, it was the person who kind of stood up and said, actually, this makes sense to me, I kind of like what he's doing here, I'm going to dance along. And suddenly, maybe that person was, you know, a leader of a big group of friends and that group of friends joined. And I thought it was super interesting in terms of like, what we learned about change, because in doing your kind of wacky dance on a hill, you don't want to be just the person dancing on their own right, you have to make someone join you. You have to make it make sense for somebody else for somebody else to get up and to want to kind of participate. And I always found that super interesting in that change in that small increments. But even if it means doing that same dance 200, 300 times, as long as you get someone dancing behind you, you're starting to kind of see that change.

Paula Gil Baizan: 07:09

I love it. And I've seen, like, so many pieces on "cash, the greatest innovation," and I think what people don't realise is that there were many people dancing, there were a lot of second dancers. And the dancers brought in their friends and there's a reason why we're having this conversation as friends today, because I became your friend through cash. And I think at the end of the day, it's building those strong relationships that really matter. But it's not only about convincing someone. I think it's about really tapping into their passion, right? So that they are willing to risk something of their own to stand up, and then dance. I think that's why it's so hard to replicate cash, because cash was made up by a bunch of people who really appreciated each other from a personal level. But you can't really say that writing an evaluation. How do you document that in an evaluation?

Sophie Tholstrup: 08:10

No, I absolutely agree with you there. I think that I think one element of cash's special sauce is the people that got involved, and how much they kind of buzzed off each other. And I think one thing that we've we've talked about consistently is, isn't it interesting how many of those original first dancers on the hill were young women? And I still don't have any answers as to why that is, but I think it's a very interesting point to note on just to build on Juliet's point, I think I was lucky early in my career to have this boss who was incredibly skilled at making change happen in very sticky systems, change happen in very change resistant systems. And his kind of words of wisdom on this stick with me a lot when I'm banging my head against what feels like a brick wall in change processes. And he said, Listen, what you need to understand is that human beings are fundamentally conservative so in any change that you propose, in particular, in our sector, where we have invested so much in our particular business models and the way we work now, most people will be mildly resistant to any change that you put forward. And you're unlikely to convince people a priority. You can sit there and argue academically until you're blue in the face, as Isabelle says, present all the evidence you want. But most people are going to be fundamentally pretty grumpy about change you put on the table. And you'll always have a small group of cheerleaders and you'll have a small group of diehard detractors and shouldn't worry about either of those because you're not going to change their mind. But the way that you get the grumbly conservatives (i.e. most of us) on board, is to get out there and do it to demonstrate this change and what it looks like off paper: what's it going to do for them, what is it going to do for the people that we serve, what does change done well look like. And once you have one or two examples of this in reality, and what we're actually talking about and how it's going and to change lives, then you start to see people jump on board. And it's almost like, as Juliet says, making something trendy. We are guilty of groupthink in this sector and I think as soon as the majority of the people you're going out for drinks with in the evening are saying, Oh, have you actually seen this example of cash done really well in Somalia or whatever it is and then you're gonna start to change the minds of the grumblers. But yeah, I think that's the sort of mantra that sticks with me when change gets really sticky and difficult and personal is just do it, do it well, and demonstrate to people what it means in reality, and you'll start to shift people.

Paula Gil Baizan: 10:37

Yeah, but it did require a lot of grit, and a lot of courage, right? Because to be the first answer, and the second dancer, I would even say the third dancer, requires a lot of vulnerability. As in, like, you are totally exposing yourself. So I think it's easier said than done. I think, like, we could write guidance between all of us on, like, how to drive chang. First of all, see what people need, then give them what they need and work really hard. But it's in the work really hard, that you're constantly exposing yourself to failure and heartache. So in my experience, the realm of change is only for the resilient. So I wanted to ask you, how do you cope? Because I can see you all as women that have worked really, really, really hard, but that have managed to stop from failure many times. And that's something that deserves a badge of honour. So for other like young women who are thinking big and trying to do important things in the sector, how do you cope with being vulnerable? And being able to show up again, and again, and again? What's your trick?

Isabelle Pelly: 11:58

I think that an element of naivety and and youth and not having this kind of institutional baggage dragging you down definitely does help. So if I take the example of when I was in Lebanon in 2o13-2o14, and leading the cash working group there, and really trying to drive the use of what was this new concept of multipurpose cash (maybe a term we never sort of come up with, but anyway) at the beginning of the Syrian crisis, I was, you know, my relatively limited experience, but I had a certain vision for how sectors and actors could come together in a more coherent way, and driven by by people's needs. And so I just persevered in terms of getting people, you know, convening people and creating that space for having the right conversation. And it became a locus for action and for a for a common common vision of what the role of multi purpose cash should be in this response. And it's now, I mean, as a result of the efforts of multiple different people, one of the largest programmes in the world and and I think it has been a blueprint for policy change because of the fact that it galvanised a lot of a lot of action, a lot of engagement, from from different organisations. I hope that I would still have that that energy and that resilience now. I think, personally, I think what's actually helped me as well is working for a whole range of different organisations. I currently work for donor, I've worked for NGOs, I worked for a network, and that allows you to understand an issue from a multitude of different perspectives and realise that not everybody has the full picture and that actually you, as a knowledge broker, because you have those different perspectives, that's a huge asset in and of itself. So I think it's trying to realise what you do bring to the table, and that you didn't have to be in Somalia in nineteen ninety-three to really understand, you know, the humanitarian business, but you have other assets to bring. So that's a few thoughts. Thanks.

Sophie Tholstrup: 14:04

Yeah, I think that is a really, really good point. And I think, probably you're, you're dead, right, that it takes a lot of resilience and a lot of hard work. I think two bits within that, that I've learned: The first one would be yes, you have to be resilient, but there's more than one way to do it and I think you have to be realistic about who you are, what you need, what gives you energy, what drains it and what works for you. So, when I was starting out, lots of my role models in the sector were these incredibly tough, bullish people who would just power through with change, power through with decisions, and their superpower was they really didn't care what other people thought of them. They knew if they were convinced that they were right, they were going to push through change. They knew that they were going to break some eggs, make some enemies on the way and that was fine for them. And being realistic about who I am, who I was, who I am; and that's not the case for me, unfortunately. I I'm not as thick skinned. I do care what people think. And so I think over time, I've learned that what keeps me energised, gives me energy and helps me keep going through the tough times when everything feels impossible, is playing that kind of complicated game of chess, where you're bringing people with very different viewpoints around the table, you're figuring out what people's common interests are, you're figuring out how we can achieve our common goal, which is to do better for the people that we serve. Without... That doesn't always work, but where possible, without crossing any red lines, and convincing people that the change works for all of them. So, sort of paying that diplomat, that convener, role, and working with people to understand what our common goals are and how we meet them was something that worked for me in a way that just pushing through change and not asking permission would not have done. So I think knowing yourself and figuring out where you get your energy from is really important. And I think you've both hinted at this, but that having regular check-ins with why you're doing this, and why it's important, is critical. And that sounds really basic. But I think it's easy to get lost in the kind of political web of who's doing what and what the micro the micro disagreements are in any given day and sort of get lost in the woods. And it's really important regularly to check back in with yourself and understand why we're doing this, why it's so important, why it's going to translate into better service better lives for the people that we serve, and you have to be really convinced of that that has to be rock solid. Otherwise, the long evenings of dealing with 700 sets of comments on a document can feel can feel pretty fruitless. So that's, I think, my two pennies worth.

Paula Gil Baizan: 16:51

I think it's more than two pennies, I would say it's like $200,000. Because I think you're touching up on something that is key for me, which is, almost like recovering the value of femininity in leadership for change. I think this sector is used to a masculine way of doing change, which is like, you know, the stereotypical image of like the response cowboy who shows up and it doesn't matter, he can have showers with only like a litre of water, and you're there saving the people. But I think there's another way of looking at leadership from feminine values, which doesn't have to mean that you have to be a woman to do that. It just means that you have to be able to value being caring, convening, bringing people together, looking after what people think looking after what people feel. And it's definitely change that feels differently. So I think you guys are our masters in like feminine value driven change. And that's something we definitely something there to learn about that not only for women, but for for men out there. Juliet what do you think?

Juliet Lang: 18:11

Yeah, I agree. And it's an interesting one as well, just, you know, when Sophie was saying nothing about figuring out who you are as a human. I remember when I first started in the humanitarian sector, I just remember feeling so young and so overwhelmed. And people were wearing a lot of pockets. There was a lot of like, you know, bravado. And I remember just feeling like, God, I'm so naive. I'm so unschooled in this, you know? Like, I don't understand this. And I think the really interesting thing, and if we look back at Isabella's example of, you know, like Lebanon, and why was that this catalyst for change or something as well is that I think the point that Sophie made about just being true to yourself, right, understanding what it is that the kind of makes you tick, and having some self belief. There was an interesting element in Beirut where I felt, especially at a certain point in the response, the response was so busy, everyone was just getting on with doing response, right? Like it was... things were just ticking over. And there was suddenly just this enormous space for a little bit of creativity, a little bit of ingenuity, and a little bit of kind of critical thinking as to "why?", You know? And if I'm to use the analogy of the hill, I think Isabelle was one of the people I saw dancing and thought, God, that looks cool. I think I want to go and dance beside her. And she looks great, you know, that kind of way. But I think that was really, for me anyway, as a woman, the first time in my career where I kind of realised that maybe if something didn't make sense, it wasn't simply because I didn't understand it, that I wasn't getting it, that I hadn't been in Somalia in nineteen ninety-three. But maybe also things just didn't quite make sense, because they didn't make sense at all and it was just that we were just doing things the way that they had always been done. And I think it took me to be that age before I had that confidence to say, Well, actually, this doesn't quite make sense for me. I don't really understand this and like Sophie, my MO is not to go around making enemies. It's just not who I am. I can't do that. I can't be the person with all the pockets who's just kind of like blasting through showering on one litre of water. I am the person who would prefer to have the conversations who would prefer to sit down who prefer to do the tiny, you know, kind of exhausting climbing up the wall just to try and kind of get that person dancing behind me. And whether that persistence, whether that is resilience, whether it's the fact that there was a specific amount of space and certain responses that allowed us to kind of do that, whether it's femininity, whether it's courage, I'm not quite sure. But there was something in there. And I think, being a young woman in the sector at the time to be clear, I'm not young anymore, but I certainly don't feel it. But being a young woman in the sector at that time, it felt like the first time I had confidence in my career, and I don't know why, but that was the first time I really kind of, you know, felt that. And then the final reflection I would have is that in terms of that resilience, I don't think of me or, you know... I think that there are women out there in this sector that are far more courageous than all of us, quite frankly. I think we were in a very specific place, we were in a very privileged place as well, to be frank, you know. We were in a response where, as I said, there was a lot of space, and we were able to kind of create some kind of ingenuity, but we were also given that space and that in and of itself meant that we were in a position that allowed us to do that. But I will say that one of my favourite quotes is about courage and about resilience and it's that idea that courage does not always war, it is the quiet voice at the end of the day that says I'll try again tomorrow. And I would like to think that change embodies that. And I would like to think that a lot of the women and men in this sector who are out there on the front lines, you know, in the Deep Field, maybe wearing all those pockets... But I... That is what I admire most in this sector. It's the quiet voice at the end of the day that says, "I'll try again tomorrow. I won't give up".

Isabelle Pelly: 22:04

No, and that last point that you made about us being in a in a privileged position, and being given opportunities is one that can't be underplayed. And we all recognise that we're just a tiny, tiny, tiny part of this system. And that's an underlying theme in this discussion for sure. But something you know, in terms of perhaps what I would recommend to young women in particular seeking to achieve change, and perhaps this is a part of the kind of feminine approach to change, is it's... I find it, anyway, impossible to disassociate my professional life and my personal life. And... But over time, I've learned to develop tools and ways of managing that. So for example, a few years ago, I moved to Haiti, and I followed my partner there. And I deliberately decided not to apply for a job before I went, even though that was definitely going to be outside of my comfort zone. And I thought I could probably get a job if I wanted to before I went, but... So I've got there, and it was awkward because we go to social events, and people would say, What are you doing? Nothing. Do you have kids? Nope. Okay. But what helped is that just before that I've done a leadership course, which really helped me set some both professional and personal goals, and just look at life holistically. So what did I want to achieve? Did I want to be a better friend? A better partner? A better, you know... Do I want to do more volunteering work? Did I... What did I want to learn? Etcetera. And then what I realised is the bit that was, you know, we'd consider conventional paid work was actually quite a small part of that overall puzzle. And if I wanted to develop as a person and see change in myself in order to then be able to do a better job in this sector, than I needed to look at things holistically. So maybe I was in a privileged position to be able to do that, but I think it's it's important to take stock from time to time.

Paula Gil Baizan: 23:57

Change starts with oneself. And I think for all of the conversations around mental health in the sector, I don't think we have had a very serious look at what happens when people who are incredibly broken, are trying to fix a bigger system that is even more broken. I said, What would happen if the people who were driving change and trying to be creative were actually healthy, content, human beings. It doesn't mean that this only applies to the people who are based with like a comfy job in Geneva. It applies to everybody. What would happen if everyone in the sector was healthy? Could we be designing and treating people in a different way? I think the answer is yes. But I don't think there's enough focus on figuring out that change starts from staff and how you treat them.

Paula Gil Baizan: 24:54

I've been thinking quite a lot about Japanese philosophy lately, which might some few might not just a bit out, but they have this concept called Ikigai, which they use to think like how find bliss. It's basically a very traditional way of looking at what we'll do and what's the meaning of life. And if you are you you're a Westerner, you would identify with like logotherapy and Viktor Frankl (which is this fantastic guy who wrote many beautiful books about kind of how people search for meaning) and all of the things that you're saying are making me think about that. So I want to ask you, what's your professional Ikigai? I'm saying like, What is the what is the thing that motivates and that keeps you keeps you going? What are the things that energise you professionally that keep you going?

Sophie Tholstrup: 25:50

I've had the huge privilege in this new role to build a team from scratch. And I got to recruit those people. And we've kind of built ourselves into a team and we set a work agenda. And so I now have the privilege of being actually the oldest person on our team by quite a long way, and by dint of that the most experienced. And what is really making me buzz at the moment, and makes me excited to jump out of bed in the morning, is that I get to work with a bunch of much younger people who are incredibly smart with great ideas, and try to work with them to figure out how to make those ideas live in the world. And how to apply some of the little I've learned about how to make change happen to those brilliant ideas, those young people coming to work every day with, with huge knowledge of technology and how the and how that world works and, and to try to make those ideas within the world. So I would say it's changed over time. And that for me is is is what's really making me jump out of bed in the morning... Caveat: what's really making me jump out of bed in the morning is, at the moment is, my crying baby. But I refer to like five weeks ago before I moved to planet newborn. That's it.

Paula Gil Baizan: 27:09

It's a good alarm clock to have, you know, a baby. And I think children, in general, change your professional lives dramatically. At least that's my experience. Because you can no longer see work in the same way. I remember I was working for a large NGO whose name I will not mention. And I got deployed to the Philippines, to have a very senior role in their response. And I had a small child. And I remember thinking, I cannot detach myself anymore. Like how can you count mothers with children just like that and make them stand on a line. And it's not that before I was this like ruthless human being with no heart. It's just that something happens inside of you when you have your own children that make at least me really different in the way that I approached my job. So I started to work more around the experience of receiving aid, whereas before I was much more focused on the result and the speed. And I don't know if that's like children, or that's just the fact that starting like your own community makes you realise that what is this business where we treat people like as individuals where everyone actually lives in tribes? So I think that makes a lot of sense if you have a little kid like waking you up. Juliet and Isabelle do your children still wake you up? [Inaudible]

Juliet Lang: 28:38

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. And it's it's a really interesting point, actually. And I will refer to Sophie who, in her wisdom, came and met me when I had a five week old baby and she was talking about a colleague that she used to work with who spoke about the... just the... the magnanimity? Might? What is it? The largeness of having a baby. The all consuming element of it. But also had changed your perspective on how she looked at other women as well as other mothers and imagination that this person, maybe even just, you know, somebody stalking the aisles in a supermarket, who was also a mother had that that common experience that same experience that thing that they had also gone through that enormity of having had a child of having suddenly broken open this kind of extraordinary vulnerability, this extraordinary kind of fear is well, that comes with with kind of having a child, but also how it changed their interaction their... the way that they looked at other women. The way that they thought of other women. The way that they thought of mothers and children. And I agree with you as well Paula that it has changed me as a humanitarian. I gave birth during COVID. And I didn't travel at all in those first couple of years. And travelling to Ukraine in March was the first time I had travelled really to a, you know, let's say an active conflict or to any kind of humanitarian duty station, quote, unquote, since I had a child. And it was challenging for me because I became that, you know, kind of slightly overly open person. I found the border crossings difficult, I looked at mothers differently, I looked at children differently. And it made me more furious, more angry, more concerned, more passionate. But it also, I think, is a difficult choice, or it's a difficult time as well, because you have to almost actively put yourself in a situation that you know is going to also impact you greatly. But you also know that what you're feeling is a percentage, a tiny proportion of what of what these women must be feeling as well. So it's changed my relationship with my work and how I interact with with those kinds of circumstances. And I really liked the way you put it as well, that it makes you focus more on the experience rather than the process. Because you think although you always sympathised with a lot of the, you know, kind of affected populations we worked with, I think this also makes you empathise, it is something that you can imagine, as well. And I think it speaks a lot to this idea that very often in humanitarian aid, we see affected populations or recipients of aid as the other, right? Like, it's like, you know, you're over there experience doing this and having that experience, and I'm over here delivering this. And I think having a child also breaks down that boundary, because you are now trying to think more about that experience from what would I want to experience and we say that we do that. But it's a much more visceral way to kind of break down that barrier.

Paula Gil Baizan: 31:40

Yeah, that's really [inaudible] It's also making me think that this conversation we were having is also about privilege, because the sector is famous for separating. It's only the typical white guy that gets cushy jobs where you bring your family. I don't know about here in Bamaco, [inaudible]. Because the sector doesn't allow privilege for everyone equally to be able to travel with your family to your post. So I think, I don't know, it's just, it's just rife with with inequality, I think in the way that people can actually be able to have some balance with their personal life to be able to be healthy to do their job. Yeah.

Isabelle Pelly: 32:32

Just yeah, I mean, I more than concur with all of that, but perhaps to spin it in a in a in a sort of positive light and think about, you know, the unique experience of being a woman in the sector, I think even prior to having children, the ability to engage, at least my perceived ability to engage, with people from across a whole range of different cultures because, you know, pretty much universally, women are able to be more open with one another, I think is a huge privilege. And of course, there are plenty of challenges that we face as women and, you know, inequality persists in every country in the world and is, and is worsening in many, but nonetheless, I found that as a, you know, unique insight that I think we as women can have, and actually that's, you know, to, back to your question about, you know, what, what brings me Ikigai, (thanks, by the way, because there's coworking spaces in Nairobi called Ikigai and I didn't know what that meant. So thank you.) But it's, I think... but a huge provision of my current job is even though I work a lot in policy and global stuff, and you know, some bureaucratic elements of the role, we do, as a donor, have a lot of frequent visits to the, to the programmes we find and really aim to build deep relationships with the partners and to engage actively with people affected by crises. So of course, you know, that highlights sometimes the huge disconnect between what you're discussing at global level and what's happening in reality, but actually, I do find quite a lot of meaning at the moment in trying to bridge that gap. So, you know, why does it matter for this displaced person in Nigeria to be connected to digital financial services? And why does the fragmentation, still, of aid for refugees in Lebanon have a huge impact on people's well being? And so then you can make the case much more convincingly. And from a place of, you know, of understanding and real passion as well.

Paula Gil Baizan: 34:28

This is very cool. And it's making me think as well of, like, when does change end, right? Because I don't know, if we go back to the to the world of cash that we all love. The first thing was, No, once we managed to get everyone to agree that we can do it, we will have succeeded. And then everyone was like, of course, you can do it. And they were like, no, actually now what we want is for everyone to do it. And now everyone's asking themselves, why aren't you doing it? And the next step was like, Oh, my God, now we're going to make sure that it works really, really well that everyone plays well with each other. And now you've done it. So my question is, where does change end? And I can see that there are some strands of change in the sector, beyond cash, obviously, that still need a little bit of completing. So what what do you think are some of those changes that are still incomplete in the sector?

Sophie Tholstrup: 35:27

That's the most diplomatic I've ever heard the be. I feel like, there's so many things in the sector which... where more change is needed. And what's going on beyond these four worlds is like a much bigger revolution in the sector that has been driven not by people like us, which is quite right, but by local actors, by governments, by widening the sector out to think about humanitarian action in this broader context. And think about the people who are, and have always, been on the frontline of humanitarian action, finally, and rightfully getting some of the funding the attention--the power that that they have deserved for so long. So I think it's worth saying that. And that, for me, and I think this is probably an obvious point is, is the big change that's underway. And I think if we thought getting people to agree that cash was a good thing, with all the vested interests, that entailed was difficult, and this is going to be multiple factors more difficult, because it's a much bigger change. I think the other one that I mentioned earlier, and that we're all struggling to wrap our heads around is, you know, again, if we look at cash as this, getting people to think carefully about caches as this, long battle that we've all been engaged in for a relatively small change. It makes me very nervous now to look at the speed with which climate change is changing lives of everyone around the globe, but in particular with the people that we serve, and to think, God, this sector is going to need to transform itself in order to stand a chance of meeting people's needs to people affected by climate changes needs. And it's going to need to do that so quickly. What can we do? What can we do to apply the lessons that we've learned from from relatively limited relatively tame and friendly changes to these massive revolutions that are going to need to happen in record time, and I don't have great answers for that. But one of the... (you can all bring me in, remind me about this and laugh in six months time when I've done nothing). But one of the things that I do want to use these few months of maternity leave for other than figuring out how to keep a baby alive, is to really do a deep dive into climate: what what it's, what it's doing to communities around the world, what opportunities there are through technology through community driven response through preparedness through all these things, to tackle it, and really have a deep dive into what this means for our sector and what we can do about it, because I have to say at the moment, it does feel so enormous and like something that this sector is, in all its brittle glory, is not is not very well primed to, to take on. But with that said, I think one of the things we have learned from cash is if you approach these issues from the headquarters perspective, it can feel hopeless. You can always be kicked into like another policy meeting or another approval process, and it can all feel a bit hopeless. But actually, if you look at what's happening on the ground, our colleagues around the world are incredibly creative, flexible, fast moving, and there are always great examples of people just getting stuff done despite the lack of movement at the global level. And I suspect the same will be true of climate change and climate resilience. I suspect there are great examples around the world being driven by community organisations that we need to learn from and scale up really quickly.

Juliet Lang: 38:58

Yeah, I really agree with Sophie on that and I think the first point, In terms of what is meant to be done, yeah, the lack of inclusivity in the sector is the biggest part. And I think what made cash interesting was also that it's never been just about cash, right? It's about being... it's about how we are changing power dynamics or at least that's certainly what I have always felt about cash in a sector. It's about how we're shifting power dynamics. And it's, it's an existential crisis for the sector, because part of it is also saying, Are we is the way that we have our humanitarian system set up really the best way to do it? Is there a way that we can all eventually work ourselves out of jobs? Or certainly kind of handover power handover decision making kind of responsibility? Because that's what we should be doing. But as Sophie said, I think there is such a long way to go. And when we look at how long it took us to get to certain decisions, it is concerning, but I have huge hope as well. I think that making these decisions has forced us to open certain questions that I think are difficult to not respond to. And I think that we will have a responsibility to do so. And I have hoped for that I have great, great hope for that. And I think the next frontier as well, and I couldn't agree more, about the climate change and about how massive this is an issue. But I also think that there are other pieces as well, in the in the interim as well. Like I think data is going to be the new frontier. I think that you know, where we kind of began that discussion around caches, and I'm moving towards data as well. But the same themes run through those themes of accountability, those themes of power dynamics and control, right, those themes of how are we shifting those kind of decision making? How are we starting to kind of be more proactive rather than reactive? How are we building into systems rather than coming in and creating our own. And I think that they will be fascinating for all of us to kind of start to reflect on in terms of not only what this change has meant, but what we as a system have to start answering in terms of those challenging questions.

Isabelle Pelly: 40:54

Yeah, I think all of that takes quite a lot of humility, which I'm not sure our sector has always had. Both in terms of honestly, like the part of the pie that we represent, which is increasingly small, in the face of hugely exacerbated needs. So primarily in climate related, but also conflict related. And so therefore, what do we need to learn from others? You know, for example, it's certainly... (I admire you, I admire your ambitions for learning, Sofia, over the next few months, I look forward to the debrief), but you know, climate risk financing, for example, that's something that I don't I don't know very much about and would love to more. Hopw does it work? How can we influence it? How can we intersect with it, for example. I think all of us working in humanitarian response right now should have a good grasp of that. Similarly, a lot has been done in terms of, you know, linking cash with social protection. And, and I think, again, that's one of the kind of the ways in which cash has continued to challenge the system. But I think so much more needs to be done, because actually, you know, as demonstrated with COVID, but also with this Whole of Africa Drought response. For example, systems still aren't ready really to respond adequately and in a timely way to to the scale of me. So, yeah, I think humility and learning is probably where we need to focus at the moment.

Paula Gil Baizan: 42:16

Yes, DevOps! Because this sector is not built for speed, it's built for comfort. So if I had to bet on something it'd be for like all the other, like, agile people who are working in climate change, you know, doing like data driven work, for them to actually eventually prove collectively that they're much better at meeting people's needs than what this, like, whole bureaucratic machinery is, I think, for me, like, all of these efforts around global solidarity and self help. That's what keeps me super excited. And I guess this is this goes to like, my last two questions for this virtual party. The first one is, What are you into? Like what are the things that are making you excited right now and you're like, I am going to have to read more of this while I'm not feeding my baby or like chasing my toddler down the stairs. What are your things that you're reading? What are you listening to? It doesn't have to be very academic and professional. I have been been watching a lot of like Apple TV shows because I really liked the storylines. So what what are you guys into? What are you doing that you're excited about?

Isabelle Pelly: 43:38

None of this is very highbrow, but just because you mentioned Apple TV shows I have also just been watching the Morning Show, which is brilliant. But the reason I thought of bringing it up is because it touches in a humorous but also quite powerful way on on the whole Me Too movement, and it did make me think, Wow, we actually really didn't conclude that conversation in our sector, you know? There was a big hullabaloo around it a few years ago and now where... what... where's the accountability really lying, you know? When we read horrendous reports about abuses of power in DRC, for example, you know, sources like The New Humanitarian are constantly bringing it to our attention. But then what next? So that's, yeah, just some food for thought. And then I actually just read a book and part of a book club here in Nairobi, which helps in terms of motivation. And we just read a book called the Feast of the Goat, which perhaps [inaudible], but by a famous Peruvian author called Vargas Llosa. And it's about the dictator Trujillo in the Dominican Republic. And it was really fascinating in terms of the Insight it gave you to into the mind of a dictator and their ability to make so many people around them, you know, walking around him complicit in his atrocities. And I just found it very terrifying in terms of parallels with today's Russia, for example. And just to realise that these, you know, we talk about conflict affected environments, and so on... I mean, this is this is the sort of mental hold that authorities can have over an entire population. And, you know, that's a big part of our contextual understanding as well. And anyway, I'm looking forward to reading more books by him as well. So recommended.

Paula Gil Baizan: 45:24

Yes, definitely magic realism is something to, like, get into if you work in the humanitarian sector. So Sophie, what are you going to?

Sophie Tholstrup: 45:34

Yeah, I'm desperate to jump in now. Because I really hope Juliet with the last word will have a more impressive answer than I have for you because the honest truth is, all I'm reading is how to keep this baby alive and like how breastfeeding works and stuff, which is not a very inspiring answer for this podcast. But I will say that apart from my ambitions to really do a deep dive into climate, and what that looks like, one of my other ambitions (again, come back to me in six months), is to do some do a bit of a deep dive into tech to catch up with my brilliant colleagues in my new job who are far more knowledgeable than I will ever be on this because I think when I took this new role, one of the drivers was exactly as Julian Isabel have said it, all of you have said, the humanitarian sector is very stubborn about being a bubble and, and sort of refusing to engage with those actors who, as you say, Paula, outside the sector, moving faster, doing better offering alternatives: I found that frustrating. And I wanted to do some thinking--do some policy, sort of push the envelope a little bit on what those links with, with technology could look like. And I realised, stepping over that, what I was thinking about, in terms of digital financial systems and using mobile technology for communication, is like a tiny, tiny tip of the iceberg of what's possible. And there's a whole bunch of very smart people out there with great ideas with great technology thinking about, you know... We recently looked at climate and looked at some of the technologies that are available for early warning and climate preparedness that could save billions of dollars, thousands of lives. And we're, we're not thinking about them, because I think our view of technology is quite limited. So I am going to do some reading and try and catch up with my brilliant colleagues who explain new concepts to me every day, like the old lady that I am. And again, you can come back to me in six months and laugh at how little progress I've made on any of those. But that's the idea anyway.

Paula Gil Baizan: 47:43

I think if you manage how to do breastfeeding effectively, like, you're already winning. That's the standard, I think. Juliet, What are you into?

Juliet Lang: 47:54

So I will not be leaving us on any kind of highbrow endline. Mostly because Isabelle stole my line. I'm also watching the Morning Show. And I find it really, really fascinating and also kind of uncomfortable viewing as well, right? Because, yeah, it just I find it really interesting, really well done. And as Isabel said, it kind of reignited that kind of conversation, which was kind of, you know, such a such a huge priority for us, and which is kind of like, you know, slightly fallen off in terms of the attention. But I find it kind of really interesting watching slightly uncomfortable watching a time as well. And I watched it with my husband. And it was... I think was... yeah, it was a really interesting piece in terms of kind of like some of the conversations that generated. So that's it. I was also watching Ted Lasso as well, which just makes me feel better about the world. And so again, not massively kind of important in terms of this conversation, but if anyone hasn't watched it, I recommend it. And then finally, in terms of what I'm reading, I really am not reading a lot at the moment. I kind of go through phases where I'll read a lot and then I'll kind of fold off slightly. So I started reading, recently enough actually, a gift my mother gave me for Christmas. And it was Samantha Power's book, who obviously I'm kind of a huge fan girl of mostly because she's, you know, redheaded and Irish and you know, just generally an incredible human being. But it was really interesting because I started reading it... I began reading it, actually, when I travelled in March, and I stopped reading and actually, when they got to... she was talking a lot about her time in the Balkans, and I began my career also in the Balkans as well. And I find it difficult reading, not because it kind of brought back difficult memories for me, but more because I realised as a kind of 23 year old, I think, going into Kosovo, how naive I was, I came after the war, I didn't see the scars on the country, I kind of just walked in, you know, slightly overwhelmed, more focused on my own kind of, you know, like, first career kind of step, and how am I going to impress people. And it really struck me like listening to her accounts of, of kind of what it was, and kind of how... (this is being very hard on myself as a 23 year old) but I wasn't very curious on and I found that really tough to reflect on--that I should have been more curious when I was there. So I took a lot from that as well, in terms of that kind of curiosity. And how I was at that time in my career, I was just so focused on trying to be competent. But I lost that curiosity. So that was an interesting kind of reflection. And it actually made me put down the book at some point, just because I had to rethink things a little bit. And I just picked it back up again recently. And I think it's a beautifully written account as well. So yeah, that's what I'm reading.

Paula Gil Baizan: 50:36

That is interesting. That is so interesting. I've been watching Severance from Apple TV. And this is... I don't know if you've seen it, but it's a it's basically a story about people who decide to, like, sever their memory from, like, their normal, private life and their professional life. So they literally get on a lift, they click a button, and then when they get to the office, they're a completely different person. And it's completely like science thing, but it has also made me think a lot about my, my own relationship with my professional life, as in like, how uncomfortable is it at times to have to be the same person, when that person that is required of you professionally is not the same person that you are in your personal life. It's really challenging, but I don't think I would choose to like separate them, I think I will stay with the struggles and the pain, and probably turn it into joy and Ikigai at some point. My second question, before we finish this party, is the equivalent of me giving you a gift. So if you if you've come to my home, I'd be like, Thank you for coming. And maybe I would give you something like leftover cake, or someone would take like the half drunk bottle of something we were drinking. So this is my my gift to you. Because you're all very humble women. I say, like, you don't necessarily go out and tell people, "Dude, what I've done? I've single handedly fixed this problem." Or "Do you know about multipurpose cash, I invented it." As in like, you don't do that sort of thing. So I want the world to be able to like bask in your greatness. And I have asked you to prepare so that you can tell us, What is your superpower? And this can be anything from like party tricks to, like, think fantastic. So should we do it? I was gonna say enough alphabetical order but then like I don't know, like, the alphabet very well. It should be... Yeah, Isabel, Do you want to tell us your superpower first?

Isabelle Pelly: 52:50

I'm gonna go for a very soft power. Actually what I wish I had as a superpower. And I often think of this is the ability to sleep at any time, because I think that will just make me a better more patient human in general. I don't have that. But I think it's it's something about bringing people together. And that's very much on a personal level. We're always hosting, always organising events. I'm renowned for really burning the candle at both ends. But genuinely I love it. But on a professional level, I think that what I enjoy doing and what I have done well and hopefully continues to do well is to bring people together to to convene different voices to help people find value in collaboration. And I've done that at different levels and continue to do so even when it's outside of my comfort zone. And I think it's at the at the heart of my experience of driving change. And so I hope to continue to us that that very soft superpower as I go forwards.

Juliet Lang: 53:58

Thank you for the question. And you're absolutely right. I think this is a group that is not very good about self promotion. I don't know if It's a cultural or I don't know what it is, but, alright, here goes. So I have one really useless superpower. Well, it's actually not useless, I say that it's not useful at all, it was super useful to me at some point in my life now it's absolutely useless. I was actually very good at guessing down to the point five kilo how heavy bags were, which is either like, instead of carrying those like, you know, really janky little scales, like, I would pick up any bag, I'd be like, you are looking at a 17.5 bag, under the weight limit, congratulations, I was really, really good at it. Like, my body is now broken. And I'm incredibly weak. So don't count that as a superpower. But it was incredibly useful. And it was a really good way to initiate myself into like, any field duty station as well for like, people would be going out or whatever and I'd be like, "Let me have a quick look at your bag here. I'll give you I'll give you the lowdown before you go to the airport". And it also resulted in one fight with Kenya Airways as well, where I claimed that their skills was off. But anyway, that was that was an aside. So that's my really useless superpower. In a really kind of uncomfortable like, Okay, what would I actually say is, is is a good use of my skill set, and I have to say I'm borrowing heavily from where like Sophie, the ultimate compliment or the ultimate kind of picker upper, the person who is the first person to be so validating and reassuring, she pointed to something which I hope is true, which is that I think I think I have been somewhat good (I qualify), about bringing people behind me in the dance. I think I can find ways to communicate. And I hope that this is not going to be completely disproven by how inarticulate and terrible I am on this podcast but I think I have found ways to communicate with people to speak to what it is that has made them concerned. I have found ways to reassure them. And I enjoy that. I, like... Maybe that's my Japanese Ikigai. I like finding problems. I like finding solutions. I like being maybe the dancer on the hill, maybe the second person, but I like being that person who who kind of brings weight or brings voice to it. I like being passionate about it. And I like finding what it is that people need to hear in order for them to kind of join me in the dance. And that's something I've really enjoyed in my career. It's something I hope i i have been good at, and I hope I will continue to be good at. And then the final thing I'll say just before I finish is just to say that in that space in that kind of finding the right words in that kind of, you know, kind of trying to tap into that passion and pulling people on board as well. It would be remiss in saying that, like, you know, we've spoken a little bit about how, you know, these women in this sector and kind of the role that we have played. But there has been also just that enormous support where on those days where I have felt like, how do I go on? Like, how do I deal with these 40,000 sets of comments on a single document, or something? It has also been the reassurance that the kind of the intellectual debate, the discussion about breastfeeding, the discussion about like, you know, TV shows and the everything in between with people that I love people, that I respect, people that have inspired me as well. And I think that that has also helped kind of generate that and reminded me why that skill is important as well. So that's that's my my useless and somewhat useful superpowers.

Sophie Tholstrup: 57:21

I do. And I think it's clear that none of our superpowers is picking ourselves up. But I would absolutely agree Isabel and Juliet with what you've said. You're two of the most impressive conveners doers and advocates that I've ever seen and serious superpowers. Also Isabel, I don't want to brag, but I have the sleep superpower; I can sleep anywhere in at any time. And it is pretty cool. So I have to confess that we cheated because we were so intimidated by this question and we kind of practice a bit. And you will never guess what these guys said my superpower is it's devastating. And it will stay with me to the end of time. They said my superpower... wait for it... was social media! [laughing] [inaudible]

Paula Gil Baizan: 58:25

What's your handle? What... Say your Twitter handle So you get more followers.

Sophie Tholstrup: 58:30

Oh, no, it's just my name. And also I have been tweeted in a long time. Yes, so, but, I think that when I got over the devastation of that comment (I do... I'm sorry, I'm being silly). I do agree that what what the nugget in there was is my brain has the ability, I think because it is quite a simple brain, to make complicated ideas quite simple, cool and quite compelling. And I think that's really helped explain things, get other people on board, build connections between nerdy humanitarians who are very deep in the weeds on a particular issue and people outside our sector, people who should care about specific issues. And yeah, I think I think there is there is there is something in that. I think having simple clear communication that gets different people around the table different people on board as a superpower is pretty cool. And I wouldn't have any other way. So yeah, that's it.

Isabelle Pelly: 59:30

Paula, can I come in on yours?

Paula Gil Baizan: 59:33

Oh, oh, my god, surprise. Yeah...

Isabelle Pelly: 59:38

I think what one of yours is the ability to constantly learn and become seemingly an expert in something new all the time. So, you know, there was a period where you were passionate about behavioural economics. I'm sure you still are. Now it's about Japanese well being and applying, you know, applying that to our world. And I think you have an amazing ability to bridge different disciplines and identify new trends and elements of learning. But can they can challenge us within our, you know, limited humanitarian mindset. So thank you, on behalf of us all,

Paula Gil Baizan: 1:00:13

Thank you, who knew like being obsessive could be a superpower? Thank you. This has been really, really interesting. I appreciate all of the time that you've kind of invested in this between babies and toddlers and busy work life and travel and everything else. I feel really lucky to have you as part of my sisterhood. And I hope that the people listening to this podcast, also feel a little bit part of our community if there are other women out there who feel a little bit alone at times, reach out, all of these ladies are on Twitter, and LinkedIn, Sophie perhaps also Instagram: the super influencer. And one thing that every woman in this podcast does really well is to lift other women up. So if you are listening to this, and you're like, Oh my God, I feel so lonely. Reach out, because we're always open. And I know thank you to Lars Peter for lending us the space and see you next time. Bye. Thank you.

Juliet Lang: 1:01:23

Thank you guys so much.

[other thank yous]