Mabala Nyaluwge and Lars Peter Nissen talk about racism and colonialism in aid. Mabala is young, African and female. Lars Peter is middle-aged, Danish and male and Mabala’s dad!
The conversation pivots around the closeness and distance between their perspectives as colleagues and as family.
Transcript
The horrific murder of George Floyd has led to a global debate about racism and colonialism today. In the aid sector, it has revived the discussion of whether the way aid is being administered is colonial and racist. It's a discussion I've often had with a young Zambian-Ugandan woman called Mabala Nyaluwge. Mabala did her studies in international relations and human rights and has, for the past couple of years, worked with various NGOs and private companies in East Africa. Racism and colonialism are at the same time deeply structural and deeply personal issues. It's very difficult to separate what is being said from who's saying it. It's therefore important for you to know that Mabala Nyaluwge is not only a colleague, she's also my daughter, and has been since she was 11 years old. So on one side we are very close as father and daughter, on the other hand, if you look at us from an age, gender, ethnicity or nationality perspective, we are very far apart. We hope that our closeness as well as the distance between us will help you understand our perspectives, and that you enjoy the conversation. So Mabala, Christina Nakawombe Nyaluwge, welcome to the podcast.
Mabala Nyaluwge:Thank you.
Lars Peter Nissen:Is the aid system as we know it racist? Is it colonial?
Mabala Nyaluwge:Thank you for having me and happy Father's Day.
Lars Peter Nissen:Thank you.
Mabala Nyaluwge:So for those who are wondering, I'm actually coming in from Kenya, Nairobi, where I have been for the past two years. And I would say this is probably the time when I can probably answer your question because I happen to be working at a place that's very diverse and very multicultural. And having left uni and coming back home, I have seen a bit of the dynamics that are at play in the in the aid sector. So is the aid sector racist? I don't think it wants to be racist, but it is. And there are some colonial markings that still exists, unfortunately. And much as... And in no way am I comparing what's happening in the states to what's happening here, but what I will think... what I do think is similar is that there's the systemic factors at play, that enable certain things to go on, to carry on. So I think the way aid is administered and given in Africa and who is in charge of this aid, and who has the power to give the aid, I think that really does play a part in how these racist undertones come out to play out. I do think there's a certain... with the people I work with sometimes, it's an outlook of the local population (you know, and this goes in terms of pay, in terms of what they deem is fair for them to receive in terms of pay, in terms of treatment) and there's a different level of treatment given to experts, right? So it's almost like experts are viewed as more delicate and a given more... I wouldn't say benefits, but I will say definitely different scales when it comes to pay, for example.
Lars Peter Nissen:Apart from the financial aspect, how does it play out?
Mabala Nyaluwge:Apart from the financial aspects, I think it plays out in a lack of understanding, a lack of having the right language to communicate with people. So whereas, you know, the experts are more vocal and speak up for what they want and are a very assertive, local population don't necessarily have that and don't necessarily feel the need to showcase all the time that they've done. And that sometimes, I think, is viewed in a certain way, because that's just not how the society works. And whereas... so, you know, there's a... I think there's an outlook... and a lazy is the wrong word, but there's a look that's like, 'Oh, these people are a bit lax so they're a bit... Like, they're not really serious. They're not really determined.' And I think that comes because of just the differences in culture and misunderstanding. So I think certain things are overlooked because they aren't presented in a way that makes make sense to the other group, if that makes sense.
Lars Peter Nissen:So what you're saying is that the local staff is more timid or less articulate or... What are you saying?
Mabala Nyaluwge:I won't say less articulate and I won't say less timid. I think that that's too... not the right words. I think it's just not... I think a lot of systems here in Africa (work systems, local systems)... they are very traditional in how they operate. So if your boss is your boss, you're calling them by Sir, you're not calling them on a first name basis, everything is very structural, very hierarchy, if you want to get something done, you go to subordinate first, you knock on your boss's door, you don't just come in with your ideas. Whereas, if... I think more Western environments tend to be more linea where it's not like, you know, you sit with your boss, you can call him by his first name, you can challenge him in a meeting, you can say, I don't agree with this. And I think if you come from a culture that is not open like that, it's very hard for you to speak up, even though you have the ideas. So not necessarily... I would want to use the word timid. Just not used to, right? Like all people who come to my workplace always say how, Oh, at their work, they will never call their boss by their first name, they would never, you know, sit in this open arrangement. So, you know, if you're affected by things, you're less able to articulate them. If you want to move forward, I think it takes you a bit more to express that. Even I look at my previous jobs in Uganda, like, it was very much (and these were local NGOs)... it was very much like, 'The boss is right.' You know.
Lars Peter Nissen:Right. So then my next next question would be, because I think I really understand what you're saying, I get that, right. So... And I come from a culture which is extremely straightforward and non-hierarchical, in this way of doing business, right? But is that... And I can see how that means that one side comes to dominate. Is that racist, though?
Mabala Nyaluwge:It's... So I don't know if it's racist, but I think it's something that the people in power can definitely be use to their advantage. And that's the problem. So whether or not it's racist... you know, I think it can, it can take racist turns and it might not be racist technically, but it's definitely a power play that you can use to gain control. It's a play that you can use to your advantage. For sure. And I think that's where the problem comes in if you don't even know that you're involved in that play, right? If you know what's happening, and you're okay with that, that's fine. But then, if you're working with people who give you the idea of 'Oh, we're open and this is happening', when in reality, there is a bit more of control on one side, then I think that's where it becomes problematic. And I think that's maybe what the issue is.
Lars Peter Nissen:What do we do about that?
Mabala Nyaluwge:Yeah, so I think we have these conversations, and I think it goes beyond... (And this is very high level) but I think we need to ask ourselves, like, who should be making the change? For example (I'm going to speak from Africans point of view, because when I mean Africa), who should be making the change in Africa? And how will we have substantial change that's going to be sustainable and that will last generations past? You know? My kids and my kids children, right? Because if that's the case, then you asked me, you asked us that question, who needs to be in charge? Who needs to be the one leading the programmes? Who needs to be the one, you know, going into communities and saying these to XYZ? As long as it's the people from, I think, the West, who are still in control, we're still going to stay in this cycle of aid... you know, donor money aid, you come, you leave, then you go. And then nothing really... nothing really changes. And I think that's kind of in the cycle that we're in right now is, there's so many startups happening, and there's so many... there's so much happening locally, but I think we really need to harness that more. And I think whether the whoever wants to come and work here from the West really has to have a mindset of transferring what they know and not staying forever. Because I think as long as people are here in control and power, then it doesn't give the local population that time to rise up and really take that change into their own hands. And I think that's what the issue is. And, I mean, maybe this is a bit... going a bit extreme, but I think the aid sector right now, or the humanitarian sector right now, is very lucrative for a young, Western individual. I mean, you come here, you paid a very good salary, probably more than you'd be getting back home, you're living in a very nice neighbourhood, and you're going to Safari almost every weekend, you're going to the beach or going to the coast. It's a very good life. But you're here, high-level, making decisions based on maybe weekly meetings with the local staff in a country and in a place where you haven't lived. You... Want you know of this culture is what you read on newspapers, and what you perceive through your friends, your other expert friends, and community, and you're not integrated in this community. So how can you fully have a grasp on what would work even if you read a couple of economist articles and you read, you know... you're not fully...
Lars Peter Nissen:You can have a 28-year-old with a master's degree, fresh out of university, running big programmes and dealing with people who have 20, 30 years experience on that person. And it's just... The power that you wield is just incredible.
Mabala Nyaluwge:Exactly, exactly. And that's what happens a lot.
Lars Peter Nissen:And I speak from experience. I mean, that that's my career we're talking about there.
Mabala Nyaluwge:Yeah.
Lars Peter Nissen:Right? And what I've always found difficult is I... Let me put it this way. The things that always made me happiest was when I ended up in a situation where that seemed... that inequality or that power difference seemed not to matter in the personal relationships, so that you had a partnership with an individual you were working with, that seemed to transcend those obvious differences, right? But it's... what I've also found is that it's difficult and it's fragile. You know, power sets in, and suddenly, whether it's a corruption case, or it is a budget that should be changed (It's often about money), then suddenly that friendship or whatever, that colleagueship you have, goes out the window. And I've experienced that several times. And who says that I was qualified to hold the positions I held?
Mabala Nyaluwge:I mean, I haven't experienced what you've experienced. But I think, also, unfortunately, there has to be some kind of understanding of, again, your post, your privilege, your power, and understanding how the other side is lacking in that. So those conversations. Again, I'm not comparing this in any way to Black Lives Matter, but like, what's happening a lot no and what's really trending is this thing of understanding your privilege and people are giving all these books and lectures and quotes and saying, you know, if you say this to me this way, this is wrong, if you do this to me this way, bla bla bla... And just trying to create that dialogue and saying, okay, look, we don't... not all of us want to come off as aggressive. We want to explain to you what's happening. We want to explain to you why we feel marginalised. We want to explain to you what's been happening. And it's people saying, okay, you know, what I understand, and I want to understand more. And I think that's what needs to happen. And I think that's not really happening. From what from what you said about the whole friendship thing, I think what I see is, unfortunately, the dialogue isn't there between local and expert. Like, that's non-existent. It's very hard to make friends across, you know, different social class and everything and lines, unless you're really forced to. And so what ends up happening is that you come as an expert, and you're in an expert bubble. Like, I'm guilty of this. Like, all my friends, we hang out in these expat places, we go to expat restaurants, we do expat things. And if you look at your friends, you know, very few of my friends are actually Kenyan. Most are from... I don't know where, like, Europe or the states. And so again, that dialogue is not happening. And so if it's not happening socially, you know, just in your everyday life, it's not gonna happen at work, either. We're all just gonna stay in those roles that we think we fit in and are comfortable in and we continue to just feed this system or feed this model of what's happening. And so I think... I don't know how those conversations happen, but I think that's that's what needs to happen to change.
Lars Peter Nissen:I still can't agree with myself whether it was a good idea or really bad idea to have this conversation with my daughter. What I was hoping to do by by having this conversation with you was that the fact that we know and trust each other and love each other the way we do, that we will be able to explore this in a freer way. But I can also see how how you sit between many chairs, right? I mean, you have also... You are African, of course, but you also have grown up in a very Western setting during a good part of your formative years, right? So how much are you African? How much are you a kid from the International School in Geneva? What are you?
Mabala Nyaluwge:Yeah, I was thinking the same thing when you were saying that. I think when you said that having this conversation and you being white, you know, if that's a good thing or right. I mean, technically for me also [laughing]... yeah, like it's also questionable for me because like I said.... like you said, it's right, I do fit in many in many places. But I think it's funny though because... for the logos, though, like I'm not... you know, if you ask me where I was from, I'd say Ugandan. Like, I identify as an African person first. I mean, the way I look how I... you know, I think... But then with some Africans, I would not fit in at all, you know? And I wouldn't fit that mark, or that mould. And I really felt, when I moved back to Uganda... So I left when I was 12. And I moved back when I was, I think... How old was I. 28 Maybe? Yeah, 28. And I was working in local organisations, and I really felt that divide. So yes, I'm home, and I speak the language. But I still speak it with an accent, people can tell where I'm from. And also, I remember complaining about something at a workplace about some colleagues are saying really inappropriate things to the women, to the female stuff, and I remember thinking, Oh, no, we should like have a suggestion box and should talk about this. People are like, Oh, you know, it's because you went to school in Canada, like, these things affect you. Like, this happens here everyday. Like, we're not bothered by that, right? And so, you see how you think differently. And I mean, they knew that what that was, was wrong, but they didn't feel like they had the power or even really wanted to address it, right? And then do other topics that would come up with, I don't really think the same and I really had to dial back and be like, You know what, just because people think like this doesn't mean I'm right or they're wrong. It's just different way of thinking. Also, so there's that on the one hand. But then at my workplace, where I'm working, you know, I'm still I'm still an African. I'm still a local. So in spite of my background, what I bring... and yes, maybe it does give me some leverage leverage to some people, and maybe they do see me a bit differently. But then I am so local stuff as well. And yeah.
Lars Peter Nissen:Yeah, it is complex, right? I... And I think I remember you called me one day and you said NGO means Nothing Going On. You were so frustrated with the organisation where you worked at that time, not where you work now, but... And we had a conversation and it was about organisation culture in NGOs and that can really suck in African NGOs as well. You can either have a founder with sort of a megalomanic personality, or you can have, as you said, a very sexist culture or... all sorts of things going on. And as you said before, there is, at times, in the African culture a respect for hierarchy and the boss, which, at least in my book, is not healthy, and which helps perpetuate some of the problems which are in African. So how... what about that whole set of issues?
Mabala Nyaluwge:Yeah, so I mean, that's a big one. And I think I was having a discussion with a friend of mine who also went to school abroad and came back home and you're saying how, like, You just don't fit in. So you could marginalised when you're working with people from the West, but then you also really fit in your culture. I don't know how you... how that changes. I think, I guess it's it's this generation, I guess, just trying to push that. I know there's places where I worked in Uganda where I was definitely, you know, looked at as being too vocal being a bit too forward and a bit too maybe aggressive?
Lars Peter Nissen:Extra?
Mabala Nyaluwge:Yeah, a bit extra and a bit assertive, you know, people didn't like that. So, yeah, and I think... So how do we change? And I think... And that's interesting, now, because (as I'm thinking out loud)... I'm just thinking that's where you kind of need these other work environments to come in. And that's where maybe you need the examples or the offer, like, from the West, right?
Lars Peter Nissen:Because I was gonna say, we taught you to be extra, we taught you to be assertive. That's what we me and mommy want you to be. And don't you dare change that, right? I mean, that's what it should be!
Mabala Nyaluwge:Exactly. And I think... And I mean, this is maybe where, you know, I feel like... these places where I worked were mostly Ugandans, all local staff. So that's definitely what was happening. But like the place I work at now is pretty mixed and you do allow... it does allow for a bit more leeway and freedom to, you know, rock the boat, as I already said. So I don't know, maybe it's... I don't know how we learn from each other, but maybe it's having an infusion of... you do need to have an infusion of other ways of working and, I mean, I don't want to say Western, but the other.
Lars Peter Nissen:I'm not sure those categories apply, right? But I had... When we visited you, when I came to Nairobi, and you took us around your hood, so to speak, I... What struck me was how much that rested in itself. How cool it was and how self-contain-... not self-contained but self reliant or... it was its own thing. And it didn't... it just seems to be to be utterly Kenyan and utterly hip urban vibe. Sort of very elite, obviously, but... But I've just never felt so irrelevant or just not just not seen. And that was wonderful. I really... it was a very powerful experience of saying, Oh, wow, this, this is really moving. And there's no need for anybody to come here and do anything. This is just moving. That's wonderful.
Mabala Nyaluwge:Yeah. And I think because... I mean, a lot of that comes from, I think, the country's identity as well, right? Like Kenya is... It's... compared to other... most other countries, it's economically (well, not in COVID), it is kind of doing doing okay. And Kenyans have a strong identity and a strong presence, you know, of who they are, and what they stand for, and are a bit more... compared to Ugandans, a bit more assertive a bit more... Yeah. And also, there's a lot of different cultures here as well, you know? So it's like a melting pot as well. Like people just do their own thing. That being said, though, they still... it doesn't take away the different dynamics and things that are still going on that don't work.
Lars Peter Nissen:But maybe we should take the conversation back to where we started around aid and the specific... We both have a career in aid, we both work in that space, and it's... I think it's fair to say that people who who go to that career, or gravitate towards that career, are not more racist than the average person. I think, on the contrary, they're at least trying to want to make the world a better place--try to strive for equality. And I think, it hits us hard to have to have these conversations, because we have to recognise that clearly there is a massive issue. But how do we get at it? How do we change it?
Mabala Nyaluwge:No, I think the first thing which is not even doing, its talking. People don't have these conversations. I am absolutely certain there's no NGO, or you know, any other business or firm, which has a multicultural office or population that sits down and is like, 'Okay, so do we think we're racist? Racism here?' No, you come into the country, you're given a post, and you start working. And it becomes... and it's honestly like this invisible thing that is just lurking around how you work and how you do. But I think it's definitely sitting down and having a question like, Okay, what's happening here? What are we doing? So it's being aware. And this is what, again, I'll go back to this Black Lives Matter thing. I think, for me... So let's say I'm the expert who's coming into the country, right? It's being aware of my privilege. It's being... it's knowing, Okay, you know what, I am this colour, I have the power. If I say this, if I do that, I'll be listened to. And I will... people will follow what I say. So how do I change that? Or how do I put... How are things put in place to check on my privilege and to check on what I'm doing, right? So it's as simple as having... if we have a board, it has to be 50% this 50% that. People have to check in on... people have to check in... [inaudible] systems in place people in place, who check in on decisions that have been made, the way we are going to be running... There has to be a deliberate, again, effort, as I was saying, with this handover of like, we're not going to stay here forever. We actually want the local population here to be the one driving the change and being the leaders in the future. So what's our plan to do that? You know? There's this thing... we have this... I think to get a work permit here, you really have to show, if you're an expert, that you are transferring knowledge to local population, right? Like your whole idea is to enrich people here. And eventually you will leave. You won't stay here forever, right? Because the whole point is to give jobs to locals. But then how many times do we actually setup a plan to do that? I think we just come in here. 'Okay, well, I'm working for five years and I'm gonna go.' But that that transfer of power, that transfer of knowledge, that transfer of like... that mentoring, you know? If you're somebody who... if you know we have the skill to ask for better pay, to speak out, are you mentoring people in your office? Are you building them up? Are you giving them chances to do that? So I think there's little... there's practical things that we can do. But at first, you need to be aware of what's happening and be aware of the dynamic that you are in. And unfortunately, people aren't aware. Like, you need to know I'm a white man in a predominantly African society, and I'm getting all this privilege. I'm a white woman, and when I walk into a meeting, people will listen to me. You need to know that, you need to acknowledge it. And I think that's what's not happening.
Lars Peter Nissen:I'm not sure it always makes a difference. I don't disagree with what you're saying. I just... I'm just tired of seeing gravity sitting in. Do you know what I mean?
Mabala Nyaluwge:Exactly and that's... yeah. And why I was saying to you to be deliberate, is because I think gravity sets in from the moment that project begins, you know? Or that person walks in. And that's why I was sort of pushed for these, like, intentional things. But I mean, I don't really know how else...
Lars Peter Nissen:Yeah, so I'll give you an example. I have... I left a fairly high position. And it was taken over by a friend of mine, who's an African. And we had a conversation before he took over the job. And one of the things he said to me was, I have to be really careful with the money or they think I'm corrupt. And I said to him, I actually think that's not the danger for you, I think the danger is that you will not see the freedom that you actually have because you're used to a much stricter accountability than what we have. And so you will not take the space that you have and will not be able to exercise the leadership that you could.
Mabala Nyaluwge:But you had those different takes because of, obviously, the shoes that you were in.
Lars Peter Nissen:Yeah. But from a formal power perspective, he was now in my shoes.
Mabala Nyaluwge:But before...
Lars Peter Nissen:Yes, but now here are the new shoes. Now you you have you have been arguing for the duration of this for empowerment and letting go of power. Okay, yeah, here. there you go. How do you use it? How do you actually play that role? And what I'm reflecting on, (and I'm deliberately not saying that I was right or that he was right)... But I'm saying what was interesting for both of us was the the different understanding of what the challenge would be. And who knows who was right?
Mabala Nyaluwge:Yeah, and I think because of the way the system works, and because of how it's been extracted, I think that's... that doesn't allow him to have that freedom immediately. Because you're thinking, 'Okay, now I've been given this. I don't have the power, but now I have the power. And it's... traditionally it's with this group or this person?'
Lars Peter Nissen:Maybe you're right. Maybe...
Mabala Nyaluwge:No, I think it is. Because I think... But I mean, think about it. If you're in a position of power where you are the donor, or you are the person that the West, you know, resonates with or places that your mind is already open to that. You already think in constraint that's creative and can do whatever because you... you're not dependent on x, y, z. And you have that... Again, you have that privilege to think like that. You have the privilege to think okay, now I can do this. But if you've been constrained before, and now you have to think otherwise, it's not easy to make that that step.
Lars Peter Nissen:I didn't say it was easy. It's very difficult.
Mabala Nyaluwge:Yeah yeah. That's not.... Yeah. That's yeah.
Lars Peter Nissen:And I think that what you just said is that's a lot around the personal perspectives and what individuals do when they end up in different situations. And it's about, I mean, how do you categorise our family, right? What are... Where are we local? Were are we... You know, that is one set of aspects and how do you as an individual sitting between many different cultures, how do you play your... the hand that you would dealt. And then I think there's another more structural issue, which also has to be addressed. And that is the one about, we will have equality when we have as many mediocre female bosses as we have male buses, right? So that... the whole structural re-shifting of the power balance or the business model or whatever. And that's a heavy lifting.
Mabala Nyaluwge:It is a heavy lift. And I think, yeah. And I think you've summarised it well with all those points. And I can't repeat them. But yeah, there's all those coming into play.
Lars Peter Nissen:Maybe the last thing I'd like to pick up with you Mabala is around... So when I look at your friends, you're sort of, when we speak about this whole identity, race, how angry are you, how assertive are you about being... I mean, you're clearly proudly African, in Africa, making yourself part of the culture there and so on. But some of your friends are a bit more militant than you are in my... Why do you think you're a tad more moderate?
Mabala Nyaluwge:In my views on racial issues?
Lars Peter Nissen:Yeah.
Mabala Nyaluwge:To be fair, I think it's an environment I lived in, I think it's the people I came into, into contact with. Um, I think... I left Uganda when I was 12 and then went to Switzerland. And I think... Switzerland and Zimbabwe is where I did my schooling before uni and I think that really changed... just being in that international school system as well. But also, I think, just our family. Our family is very diverse. Because now, actually, I was gonna say it was the schooling, but then I realised not only that, because I do have friends who also went through international schooling, were also very militant, and who were very, like, pro-black.
Lars Peter Nissen:And let me just be really clear here. I'm not saying that you are right. That your position is better than the more militant because maybe you... I mean, that's... it's not what I'm getting at. I'm just trying to understand where it comes from. And do you do... Do you sometimes think that maybe you should be a bit more militant?
Mabala Nyaluwge:No, I don't think I should be more militant.
Lars Peter Nissen:Why not?
Mabala Nyaluwge:I'm perfectly okay with the way. I think I'm militant enough. Because I think for me, personally, I think being more militant doesn't allow you, sometimes, to hear. It just allows you to talk talk talk. And that's fine, if that's what you want to do. But if you actually want to create equality, and if you want to actually fix this, or make it better, then you're gonna have to have some dialogue. And you're going to have to approach it in a way, for me personally, that I think, is not to be so militant. And also, it depends. I mean, if... there's the times when I am pretty militant. I mean, if you're really saying stuff that's really, you know, out of line or completely different or whatever then I am going to say, I mean, 'wrong'. I am going to call you out. But I do think... I think just our family, the fact that I've lived with you, I've seen your family, I've seen how, you know, how we interact with each other. I think that plays a huge part. I mean, I know we're not talking about this, but when I when I talk with friends who are... who are not homophobic now, but were homophobic (and in no way, am I comparing any of these issues, by the way. I'm not saying, you know... I'm just giving an example.), most people's ideas change when they are in an interaction with somebody who's gay. You know, when they now have a friend who's gay, or they now go out for dinner, it's like, oh, actually, you don't have five eyes or like five legs. You're like me. And I think that's what has made my views change. I think it's living with you, it's like being with your family, it's living... it's going to the schools I had and having the friends I had. You begin to understand how actually, yeah...
Lars Peter Nissen:So the question, then, is, this wonderfully nuanced and very reasonable position that you have just outlined, and that I'm really happy with, obviously, because that I think, is also why it has worked so well with our families coming together... Does it hold you back from addressing some of the more structural issues around racism? I think that's the question. Are you too reasonable?
Mabala Nyaluwge:No, I don't think I'm too reasonable. Because I... I mean, I'm not going to go into too much detail, but I have tried to address some of those structural issues when they come into play. So, without... and it's an... I think it's the approach that I take them in, right? So I'm not gonna go to somebody and say, Hey, like, it's not fair that ABCD is like this because you are like that and the world is like this. I think the approach I take is, this... the people from this country or this culture from this... or who've gone up here, think like this, therefore do not feel comfortable expressing themselves in this way. And that's why they will not be as vocal about certain things, because of that. And this is something you need to be aware of, right? And that's how I approach it, as opposed to being like, Oh, you're racist, Oh, you're ignoring people, Oh, you're not listening, you know, doing your job.
Lars Peter Nissen:I think for me, we've touched upon most of the issues that I wanted to talk about, and I thank you for taking time to do this. It's really nice to have the space to think through some of these often very difficult issues and I can think of nobody better to do with than you. So thank you.
Mabala Nyaluwge:Yeah, and I just wanted to add, I mean, we were discussing what this would look like before, and I think it's funny how this... that conversation and this is similar, but also quite different. It's interesting how... and maybe this one is more refined so maybe that's good. But I think for me, what I'd just want to say and end with is just being aware of... I think it just begins, again, being aware of your privilege, being aware of where you stand. And I think that's something that this talk has reminded me of, but also, I remember moving back home, it really hits me how, just because of where I've lived and what I've seen and how I think differently, and to not take that for granted and to always be aware of the shoes that you fill and be aware of how that affects the way you think, it affects the way you see things, and to always think of that when addressing somebody else or thinking of issues. Think of the lens that you're coming from and trying to understand the other lens they're coming from. I think that's... I think once... The more we do that, the more understanding we have and the more dialogue we have. But if we are completely oblivious to that, I think that's where things get lost in translation, and that's why we don't have these honest conversations.
Lars Peter Nissen:I have nothing to add. Thank you.
Mabala Nyaluwge:Asante sana.