The ecumenical movement has played a key role in shaping in the fight for a more just world. Christian Balslev-Olesen and Karsten Nissen have been at the forefront of the movement since the late 1960s. But what drove two young theology students to become activists? Where is the ecumenical movement today? What would they do today if they were just starting out?
Listen as two (self-declared) boomers give a master class in how to stay committed for the long haul!
Transcript
This week's guests on Trumanitarian are Christian Balslev-Olsen, the former Secretary General of DanChurchAid, and Bishop Emeritus Karsten Nissen. They have been, and are still, thought leaders in the Ecumenical Movement, and their work and careers have influenced my thinking on humanitarian action throughout my career. They come from the same place, namely, the faculty of theology at the University of Aarhus in Denmark, in the mid to late 196Os, where they both studied, that was a time of great change for the church and you had new ideas infecting a lot of people inspiring them to become engaged in the struggle for a more just world. The conversation does have a Danish slant to it, but please listen and battle on through the Danish accent. And I will think you will see how the commitment and passion of these two seasoned pastors is very much relevant for us as a global community today. It is the last episode in Season two, and we will take a break for some weeks. Thank you all for having listened in and for all of your feedback on social media. Please continue to share your ideas for new episodes. Tell us what you like what you don't like. You can find us on Twitter @trumanitarian, on LinkedIn, or you can send an email to info@trumanitarian.org. Enjoy the conversation.
Christian Hapspev-Olson and Karsten Nissen, welcome to Trumanitarian.
Christian Balslev-Olsen:Thank you.
Karsten Nissen:Thank you.
Lars Peter Nissen:Christian, you're one of my favourite ex-bosses, and Dad, you are my favourite current dad. I'll just make a pledge to my listeners here, this will be the last family member I bring on to humanitarian, but I hope you will find it worthwhile listening to what what Christian has to say. I've invited both of you in here because you come from very similar backgrounds: you both studied theology in the 60s and 70s in Aarhus, in Denmark, and since then became, in different ways, involved in international development and humanitarian work. And Christian you, in Denmark, are best known as the former Secretary General of DanChurchAid, and later the country representative for UNICEF in Somalia. And Dad, you work more on the governance side of things as a board member in LWF and DanChurchAid, and then served as a pastor and later bishop in the Danish Church. I'd like to start by asking both of you, when you started out studying theology, what was it that influenced you to get involved in the whole Ecumenical Movement in the development and humanitarian side of things? What what drove that Christian?
Christian Balslev-Olsen:I think, to be very specific, it was basically the situation in South Africa, the anti-apartheid work. I became as a student involved directly in what was called the Church's Programme to Combat Racism and thereby I became involved both at home as an activist, a church activist, but also, in that way, I got to know a number of people, church leaders, like Desmond Tutu, and others in South Africa, Namibia and South Africa. That was definitely my way into the international solidarity work. And from there into the more specific on humanitarian and development work.
Lars Peter Nissen:Thank you, and Karsten, for you, How did you get get involved in this?
Karsten Nissen:Well, I started my studies in Aarhus in nineteen sixty-five. And the year after that there was a big conference in Geneva, Life and Work: Social Ethics. And we had the youth rebellion in Denmark in 67. We also had... in the year to come, you also had the assembly in Uppsala, World Council of Churches. The world writes the agenda of the church, was the words said again and again. Martin Luther King was killed. We had the uprising in in the south and United States. And also, we had a whole new way of relating to the world. I started as a... quite a normal theological student, and through the work of the Institute on missiology and ecumenical theology, my eyes were opened to the global responsibility of the church--the social-ethical responsibility. And as part of that work, we also had a team working with a report made by IDOC, an institute in Rome, about the history of the Ecumenical Movement. I wrote a thesis during my studies on the integration of the World Council of Churches and the International Investment Council, and later, a dissertation with the same subject. So mainly through the work of Professor Johannes Aargaard and his wife Anne Marie Aagaard, we were a group of people who, in these years, experienced real... a revelation, you could almost say--that the world became part of theology in quite another way. This formed me very much in my later work also, when I, for nine years, was the leader of the Deacon High School in Aarhus.
Lars Peter Nissen:And so, Christian, you chose a different path. You chose, after your studies, to then get more actively engaged directly in assistance? Is that right? In humanitarian work?
Christian Balslev-Olsen:Yes, it is correct to some extent, but I have to say the same personalities that Karsten mentioned has also been the inspiration for myself: Johannes Aargaard and his wife Anne Marie Aagaard and also Viggo Mollerup. When I was a student, these three people had a lot of influence on my own development, I could say, They were the one to direct me so my thesis at the... when I ended at the university, actually was all about South Africa and other international global ethical issues. But you're right, when I finalised my university, I first came as Secretary General for the Ecumenical Council in Denmark. That means my organisational, so to say, way was to join the Ecumenical Movement. And that has been my starting point, and I can see a line from all Aarhus Ecumenical Council, DanChurchAid, and to the UN. I will explain that more in more details. But you're right, I went into the more institutional, organisational part of the ecumenical life and the global solidarity work in the sense of development and humanitarian activities. You're right.
Lars Peter Nissen:Now, one of the reasons I wanted to have the two of you on the show is that I'm, in my daily work, often confronted with an attitude towards some of the faith based organisations that is at best sceptical, I would say, right, where it is like, What is the... What are these guys out to capture new souls? What is this, right? And I find that very interesting, because for me, the experience has been the opposite. It has been that the church organisations I got involved with when I started in this space, in this line of work, were extremely purpose driven, extremely political, extremely principled--and not at all out fishing for souls. But could you could you maybe, say a bit about how you... how have you related to that... we have... Well let me put it this way, there are different shades of faith based organisation, some are clearly more... It's harder to distinguish between a church and professional MGO, whereas you have another group of agencies around the ACT Alliance, for example, where I would argue that those are basically mainstream NGOs who just happen to be founded by... on a Christian foundation. How do you look at at some of the actors who may be a bit more into the missionary side as well and tend to mix these things up. Is that a contradiction? Is... What's your thinking on that?
Christian Balslev-Olsen:I think it's important to have a more historical point of view here. When Karsten and I joined DanChurchAid in the beginning of the 70s, it was so important to demonstrate that a church development agency was a professional one. It was actually stated by the board, "we don't have a theology". We should demonstrate that we were efficient, that we were basically secular in what we were doing. By being very secular, we had access to funding from government, from other governments and so on. And we distinguish ourselves very much from mission societies. In DanChurchAid, we have our own bucket, and separated for development for assisting smaller churches in Eastern Europe and so on. So the way that denture seek became the big organisation in the 70s, in the Biafran airlifting was basically to demonstrate we are effective, efficient, and we are not mission driven. That was clearly not just because of the General Secretary at that time, it was basically the way that we had access to government funding. There was a total separation of church work and development work. And you need to have in mind that we were living at a point in time, where everyone had in mind that really, religion would disappear, modernity will take over and we will have a society, a world, without religion in anyhow. The big bomb, shall we say, was 79, when we had the revolution in Iran, and people really realise that this religion doesn't go away, we better start thinking how to handle it. And if you now take it up today, where you are trying to elaborate the attitudes, now everyone, secular government bodies, and so on, are insisting to work with churches and religious bodies when it comes to development and humanitarian aid. That is a clear interest, Denmark being the last one, but the World Bank was actually the first one to directly interact with church bodies, the World Council of Churches. They did that during Wolfensohn. He insisted that World Bank could only maintain its credibility if they work directly with big, religious, Christian bodies, like the World Council of Churches, and started a study at that point in time. Later on, all the other government bodies became involved. And finally, Denmark, as the last one, has also got involved to understand, we need to understand the religious dynamic in society if we have to be successful. So you see, there has been quite a development during these many years that we have been involved in the issue of development and religion and Christianity.
Karsten Nissen:May I just add here that I quite agree. It's true that in these years, these formative years we are talking about, it was very important for us in the DanChurchAid to demonstrate that professionally, were as good, maybe even better than the purely secular organisations working within this field. But at the same time, you also had an ongoing discussion within the DanChurchAid board about the self-understanding of the DanChurchAid, because the fact that you work professionally on a higher level, and that everything should be okay there. Also that you of course, do not use the emergency development aid, to foster religious ideas or even to evangelise. Of course, this would be no go. On the other hand, be found it was very important that we as an organisation, as a board, and staff in the DanChurchAid, could have a discussion about why are we engaged in this? What is the aim of DanChurchAid? And it's in there also lies the add to... the value of an of a religious organisation within emergency and development aid, humanitarian aid. It is that if you want to work with people, especially people in need, you must have some kind of an understanding of human dignity. Of what is the meaning of life? Why is it important that we have a responsibility for each other. And you can have that on the basis of the Christian faiths, you can be a Muslim, you can be a Jew or Hindu, you could be an atheist: The main thing is that you do not regard this word solely as a technical function. But that you keep in mind that it's the most precious item you work wit, when you are in this game, your fellow man. And here I say we need, as church related organisations, to be very clear in our own mind, why we are here. And that leads me to another point (this is both technical and also content related). Because the big value... I think one of the big values of the church-related humanitarian aid is that they, all over the world, we have a very fine mascot a very fine network of local congregations, of different denominations, of course, but we have... you cannot find, maybe not in North Korea, but in some parts of China, either, but you cannot find a place on the earth where there is no Christian congregation nearby. So there you have, already before you start the work, you have a network to use, to work through, to know the needs. And also you have the local trust and confidence of people when you work through the local churches. And this is one of the very big advantages, as I see it, of the of the church-related emergency and humanitarian work.
Lars Peter Nissen:It's so interesting to hear you describe this, and what I hear you saying is basically that your faith should influence you when it comes to purpose, but not procurement. So that once we just we think about the purpose, the principles underpinning what we do, of course our faith comes into that. But once you start running the machine and buying blankets, or whatever you may be doing, we do that just like everybody else. And I also you're saying that back in the 60s and 70s, you had to go out of your way to make that point. That that's who we are, we are professional. What I hadn't understood, and what I find really fascinating, is in the swing back, whereby some of the big international organisations, the World Bank, for example, start picking up of the strength of collaborating with the churches and in engaging with societies in that way. And so Christian, I'd be fascinated to hear... you said before that there was a straight line from the... from theology and Aarhus, to DanChurchAid, to UNICEF and the UN. Please enlighten us: What is that line?
Christian Balslev-Olsen:At least I can see a line I'm not sure I can get everyone to understand that is a direct line. But the way I see the line is, in the DanChurchAid, in church-based development and humanitarian work, we are purpose driven. We have a mission. And we have a basic fundamental understanding of human values. We are all created by God, no matter where you are, who you are, and where you're coming from. I see the same values when I was working within the UN. UN is basically... and I have to say, it was the privilege that I became part of a value driven organisation. We were driven by a number of humanitarian and human rights conventions and so on. Of course, there was a lot of practical issues as well, but when it comes to the bottom line, we were driven by our basic idealistic purpose. And that often had an implication that there was a conflict between donors and the UN, conflict with local government and the UN agencies. So in that sense, I feel I'm very privileged that I have, in all my life, been able to be part of a purpose, mission driven organisation. What's the difference, then, between UN and working in DanChurchAid? The interesting, I would say... I worked so basically for 10 years with the UN in different African countries. And for my staff, local staff and internationals, there was a clear understanding, we are all religious people. So a prayer in my organisation in the UN was more something that we of course had to do. When I was in DanChurchAid, we need an argument, in a secular country like Denmark, to argue that we are religious people and we need to have a prayer. It was much more natural for my 400 staff in Somalia, compared to working in a secular society, like the Danish one. And I'm not using my own experience alone. I had a very good colleague in the UN. He said, I'm praying wherever I'm coming and going. Of course, I have to pray, I'm a Muslim. But the only country where I cannot pray, where I feel offended, that's when I'm visiting your country in Denmark, because people feel that I'm crossing a border line and I should not express myself in the public in praying. So what I'm trying to say... also within the UN, it was very much driven by an understanding that religion (Christianity, Muslims and so on) is a fundamental part of what we have to understand to do development or humanitarian work.
Lars Peter Nissen:One thing I sometimes thought about with the work of the Ecumenical Movement is that your heyday somehow was Apartheid, the Palestinian cause, the struggles in Central America in the 80s and in the 90s. What is it today?
Karsten Nissen:You see there has been a development in the Ecumenical Movement, growing from a grassroot movement, carried by individuals with a vision, then it became church-based, from 48 when Amsterdam created the assembly, you know, Amsterdam, the World Council of Churches. And since then, it has become even more institutionalised, the Ecumenical Movement. And I see through my experiences in the World Council of Churches, I worked there one year wrote... writing my thesis, and also in the Lutheran World Federation, where I worked in the...executive committee. I see development now, where, so to say, the Ecumenical Movement has been much more organise and also characterised by the official choices. It has made them slow. It has taken away many visions. It has also meant that, for instance, when you talk about persecutions of Christians in Iraq or in the Middle East or in China, or in India in these days also, you'll feel a reluctance from the official church leaders, they do not want to offend by telling the truth. And therefore, I think that it is very needed that we ask the question to ourselves, Why are we here? Are we here just to maintain our own position as churches? Or are we here because our Lord in the church has given us a commandment to help our fellow men, to love our neighbour in our daily work? I think that of course, when you are a boomer as... we are boomers, I mean, we... but you have you have chosen yourself to have a conversation to two old boomers. So okay, now I say how I experienced it. I think that what happened in the 70s, in the late 60s, was like have a fresh wind blowing through the churches in the world. And many new opportunities rose and also we were very instrumental in combating racism and we we had also the guts to go our own ways. When I now look at marks development work, it has been so nice, it is so driven by organisation and structures and bylaws and what have you, and in the vision, many times, is to fulfil the aims of the donors. And the beat donor is the state. There, I think the church related humanitarian aid has an obligation to stand there on its own right, not just as part of the official state work but because we are we are here because we have the vision, we have a commandment to do our work. Also, I think you should be very aware of what is happening in our own country, where responsibility for people from other countries... refugees come into our country with wounds on their souls and bodies are regarded as our enemies. You have a very big job in your own country to change things. And also I think that you should always remember, as church-related organisation, of course, you have an auditor, of course you should... you also do it in the best centre way you should, no fraud, not anything, but you will respond to a higher authority than some board in some government or some ministry. I'm sorry, if it sounds too pathetic. But I think it is important that we remember that. And this is for internal use. I mean, it's not that we should show people because theologically, I have big reservation using the word of what value do we give it to it? Because it's not a question of value. It's a question of purpose. It's a question of, how do you look at your fellow man?
Lars Peter Nissen:As you were talking Karsten, and you were describing the way in which the Ecumenical Movement has changed and become more institutionalised in this dynamic and less rebellious, maybe. The question in my mind was, Christian, you describe a seamless transition into the UN system. Don't you see some of the same things that Karsten described happening to the Ecumenical Movement also happening to the UN?
Christian Balslev-Olsen:You're fully right. Before going direct to your questions, I would like to take you back to what we just discussed. It's quite clear that the World Council of Churches is not the same World Council of Churches that we work with in the 60s and the 70s. Today, there is a global body called the ACT Alliance, which we didn't have at that time, and exactly one of the biggest alliances globally still. But I think it's more important to have in mind, the more evangelical movement is in Africa, developing and becoming the big players in development and humanitarian work. World Vision is one of the biggest... for UN, biggest partner, in many African countries, doing excellent work. Tearfund, and a number of more evangelical churches are now aligning themselves and building up institutions and global alliances. So maybe you don't see the World Council of Churches so much, but you will see an evangelical movement, very much driven by the Americans, growing and growing and growing. So I don't think you should take the churches out of what is happening now, but it's a different way of doing it. Secondly, yes, also in the UN, or in the UN specifically, you had definitely too much bureaucracy. You had to money, Excel and strategies and what have you, and therefore sometimes you're taking the energy out of people to what you're doing. But that doesn't take away the fact that you were actually purpose driven in the way that you cannot have a government or a national NGO. They have to relate to the actual national agenda. Our own government now is writing up a new strategy and the strategy is basically there to increase funding to make sure that we do not have immigrants and refugees in Europe and Denmark. So the funding is driven by a purpose of national interest, which we cannot in a UN, where the mandate is the Charles Convention or the Human Rights Convention, definitely not. So you see, that is still this purpose driven, which is so important. And it's still, in my opinion, the main drivers in the UN. Just today, UN in Denmark issued a declaration saying that Denmark's unwillingness to take the children back from the camps in Syria is against international conventions. That's definitely a very activist point of view. And the government and many people in Denmark do not like it. But the UN has a mandate and the purpose, which should not just accommodate narrow Danish interest.
Karsten Nissen:Well, I think one of the very important issues in these years is that humanitarian aid, it be church related or not, but that humanitarian aid, not becomes does not become a part of foreign policy of a given nation or part of a military action of a more foreign nation somewhere in the world. We need to distinguish very closely between those two things, the humanitarian aid, and military and trade related initiatives. Because then we lose credibility, and we also lose our own self-esteem, in my view. When you look at the history of colonialism, it is very interesting, for instance in Tranquebar, to see how the Danish missionaries, they were from Germany, but they were sent by the Danish king, that they opposed the way in which the Danish commander and the Danish army down there, how they treated people, because they gave them the ability to read and to write, they taught them and gave them also the self-esteem, that they were equal as human beings, to any other person. And some of these missionaries were thrown into jail by the Danish military. So this is just a historical example. And it's very important today that we keep these things apart, then we cannot do our work.
Christian Balslev-Olsen:I think we have learned the lesson the hard way. I think what has happened in Afghanistan with integrated missions, or our security policy was underlying that we should have integrated missions have failed totally, totally. And if you read new security strategies, they admit openly, we need to stop that kind of integration and understanding that only by integrating humanitarian and security issues, we can achieve what we would like to achieve. Even saying from some military sources, saying it was a major blow that we had in mind that we could give credibility to our security missions, by giving it a humanitarian alibi, this has failed totally for the humanitarian, as well as for our security missions that has been there. So I think that is sorry to say a headache in many headquarters from what has happened in Afghanistan. That doesn't take away we need to be very clear on that. But Afghanistan has definitely been a turning point.
Lars Peter Nissen:When we went when we look at what has happened over the past year, year and a half, it's sometimes compelling to compare it to the time back in the late 60s, early 70s, compared to nineteen eighty-nine , compare it to 9/11, to one of these pivotal moments where the world actually sort of fundamentally changed. I don't think we yet know how COVID, the COVID pandemic, will change the world in in the long run, but it feels like we are in a moment of change. From your perspective... Let's imagine that you were in your early 20s now studying theology back and Aarhus. What would be your project? What would you actually engage in? How would you interpret your faith and your responsibility to change the world if you were not boomers, as you are you wonderful boomers. But what would you do?
Karsten Nissen:Well, I thik I would do some of the same things I haven't been doing. I would go deeper into the theology of ecumenics and diaconics. I would maybe not leave it so quickly to serve solely the church, I have been happy to serve the church and my God, maybe some more years to go deeper into some subjects. And then I would... I think I would try to establish a programme or a project, trying to investigate Denmark and what has happened in Denmark, from an outside, if you can do that, outside review. So to say, regard Denmark as as a place who needs some humanitarian assistance, who needs to be assisted, to find its way? And what would I do to help my own country to get away from this, even more and more narrow understanding of our purpose in the world? I have been born in nineteen fourty-six, I have lived in Europe in a time with no wars in our part of the world. And this is historic sensation. And now we see that new nationalistic movements, also in Denmark, are cutting the ties to the international community, regarding UN, for instance, as an enemy almost when they criticise us for what we do for the children from Al-Hawl in Syria. And I think that, in that way, I would try to change some... maybe going into the work of the ecumenical counsel or something like that, in order to change our situation, or to bring some knowledge to the Danish people about what is happening. Because I'm afraid that that my grand children maybe not will live in a Europe without wars.
Christian Balslev-Olsen:I think. first of all, I would like to influence people and agencies working in the field of humanitarian and development work, to insist on their core business. That means try to get people back to understand that we need to be need driven. We need to address the issues of the most vulnerable, the most poor people, and so on. Today, I see government and many NGOs, they are driven by an internal political agenda. And you can just map where funding is going. It's basically today going to what is of political interest. One of the most difficult part in the world is Yemen, and they cannot get their funding just to have people to survive in Yemen. So as much as we have a language of leave no one behind or localization and so on, we need agencies and people to understand we are basically here driven to assist the most needy and the most vulnerable, and that is going to be even more important after COVID 19. We are driven by a very narrow political agenda, and what it is that we will have on our news... and then our television news every evening. And that's very depressing to see that there is such a narrow interest in what we are doing, and not doing what is needed in the world where we have so many issues which is totally forgotten. We have better access to understand what is happening all over the world, but we do not understand exactly what is happening in countries like Yemen, or in some countries in Africa where we have no news, or we don't have an embassy, and we have no political interest. I can just quote by someone who told me when I was based in Africa (and that's the privilege, that I have been living most of my development career in Africa). When there was an emergency with people dying on a daily basis I said, Why are you not starting fundraising? He said, Christian, forget about that. We cannot do anything before that is an interest in Denmark. So the interest was, what is interested for the Danes and not what is the needs in in the context in a specific country in Africa. This is actually what I would like to try to convince people and agencies, we need to come go back to the more basic understanding that we are here to assist people in need, and not just our own internal agenda.
Karsten Nissen:I think this is very interesting, because I agree totally. It's very interesting that, so to say, we have the same point, but you have it clearly from your international perspective, and I have it from my experience in Denmark. But when you take down to the bottom of it, I think the same source.
Christian Balslev-Olsen:And I can just add on to what you're saying Karsten. As I said In the beginning, I have very much been influenced and driven by church leaders in Africa, in South Africa, Desmond Tutu, I think one important aspect... He was again and again telling us, we are prisoners of hope, prisoners of hope. That means we are here to demonstrate there is a future, there is a hope. If people have that kind of purpose driven understanding, to see an opportunity and hope and a future that makes a difference. And that has, at least for me, my fully understanding wherever I have been, whether it's Somalia, or in other these crisis countries, there's always a hope, if you're willing to listen to the people to see what's actually done by people themselves and not what is done by agencies. Forget about the agencies, most people in these countries, they definitely survive because they can organise themselves. Because they are extremely well in organising local communities. And then later on, we can come and assist. And that my concern that there is so little understanding on the capacities in these vulnerable communities. People do think that we are the one to find the solution to all humanitarian crisis. No, actually people are the best themselves, and then we can add on, but that understanding is totally disappearing from, yeah, the overall understanding what humanitarian development work is all about today.
Karsten Nissen:I think that's very true. I think it is very true that somehow having a hope also means that you get the strains to live with unsolved mysteries in your life. And as long as you try to do what you can do without ever thinking that now you have solved every problem, "I didn't effort, I tried to", then I think you can also still have the hope that everything does not depend on man or what you and I can do or have done, Gott sei dank.
Lars Peter Nissen:Okay, boomers, you are two of my favourite boomers, thank you so much for coming on Trumanitarian and giving such a fresh perspective on the humanitarian development work and thank you personally for being an inspiration, both of you, in my professional life.
Christian Balslev-Olsen:Thank you.
Karsten Nissen:Also thank you. You are one of my favourite sons.